Not everyone is the decendent of a plantation owner. If you are, then good on you for wanting to feel guilty. I personally believe it is just laziness... wanting to group all white people in one category and not worry about the truth that we are not all the same... sort of like how racists group all people of one race together when they are not the same.

Oppressing minorities is part of the traditional culture of our country that we need to expunge.

And how do you suggest we "expunge" this culture? Most people who are
dead-set on that type of unfortunate behavior are just as dead-set as you
are about things you believe important. How would one "expunge" your
deepest convictions?

I suspect that only a very drastic "expungement" would be all that would do
it, right? Is that what you are suggesting?

Maybe that is why you feel guilty... you have more in common
with lazy racists than others of us do.

I think not. Whether you agree with the racists of the past or not, every time that you get a traffic ticket and survive the experience you're benefitting from the systemic racism inherent in our culture.

No I am benefiting from doing what I know to do... not driving drunk or high, having my ID and info out on the dash before the cop approaches the vehicle, keeping my hands in sight at all times, turning the engine off, and not
getting "smart" or acting stupid.

I know it is difficult for you to imagine that these things are the real reason.... it has to be systemic racism that saves my ass... but my belief
is that if I didn't follow what I know to do and/or did *any* of the very,
very stupid things that you see people doing on camera before things go sideways, I would have those same "experiences" *despite* being white. I
have no doubt about that.

Maybe you should experiment with being white, getting pulled over, and then pulling some stupid shenanigans and see what happens. I am guessing you
won't get off as easy as you think you will for, you know, just being white.


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On 04 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Not everyone is the decendent of a plantation owner. If you are, t good on you for wanting to feel guilty. I personally believe it is laziness... wanting to group all white people in one category and n worry about the truth that we are not all the same... sort of like racists group all people of one race together when they are not the same.

Oppressing minorities is part of the traditional culture of our country we need to expunge.

And how do you suggest we "expunge" this culture? Most people who are dead-set on that type of unfortunate behavior are just as dead-set as you are about things you believe important. How would one "expunge" your deepest convictions?

By changing the culture over time, the same way it's always been done. At
first there's resistance, but eventually acceptance becomes the norm.

I suspect that only a very drastic "expungement" would be all that would do it, right? Is that what you are suggesting?

Nope.

Maybe that is why you feel guilty... you have more in common
with lazy racists than others of us do.

I think not. Whether you agree with the racists of the past or not, ever time that you get a traffic ticket and survive the experience you're benefitting from the systemic racism inherent in our culture.

No I am benefiting from doing what I know to do... not driving drunk or high, having my ID and info out on the dash before the cop approaches
the vehicle, keeping my hands in sight at all times, turning the engine off, and not getting "smart" or acting stupid.

People have died in traffic stops without doing any of those things.

I know it is difficult for you to imagine that these things are the real reason.... it has to be systemic racism that saves my ass... but my
belief is that if I didn't follow what I know to do and/or did *any* of the very, very stupid things that you see people doing on camera before things go sideways, I would have those same "experiences" *despite*
being white. I have no doubt about that.

Except that there is evidence proving you wrong. For example, Philando
Castile or Sandra Bland.

Maybe you should experiment with being white, getting pulled over, and then pulling some stupid shenanigans and see what happens. I am
guessing you won't get off as easy as you think you will for, you know, just being white.

Except that there is evidence proving you wrong. Plenty of white people
survive things for which black people are killed.

There is video evidence of Cobb County (Georgia) Police Lt. Greg Abbott (presumably no relation to the Texas governor of the same name) trying to get
a white woman to exit her vehicle after she refused to do so. Did he shoot
her? No, he said, "But you're not black. Remember? We only kill back people. Yeah. We only kill black people, right? All the videos you've seen, have you seen [inaudible] people get killed?"

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Oppressing minorities is part of the traditional culture of our country
we need to expunge.

And how do you suggest we "expunge" this culture? Most people who are dead-set on that type of unfortunate behavior are just as dead-set as you
are about things you believe important. How would one "expunge" your deepest convictions?

By changing the culture over time, the same way it's always been done. At first there's resistance, but eventually acceptance becomes the norm.

You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no way to "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequence.

No I am benefiting from doing what I know to do... not driving drunk or high, having my ID and info out on the dash before the cop approaches the vehicle, keeping my hands in sight at all times, turning the engine off, and not getting "smart" or acting stupid.

People have died in traffic stops without doing any of those things.

Very few. Most of them hit the news with little detail, and some people
assume they did nothing. Then the video comes out and they were usually
doing something they should have known not to do.


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On 05 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

And how do you suggest we "expunge" this culture? Most people who dead-set on that type of unfortunate behavior are just as dead-set you
are about things you believe important. How would one "expunge" yo deepest convictions?

By changing the culture over time, the same way it's always been done. A first there's resistance, but eventually acceptance becomes the norm.

You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no way to "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequence.

I did answer the question. To be more specific, in addition to laws and court decisions countering bigoted actions, I believe that making bigoted speech
and actions socially shameful will do much to improve the situation.

No I am benefiting from doing what I know to do... not driving drun high, having my ID and info out on the dash before the cop approach the vehicle, keeping my hands in sight at all times, turning the en off, and not getting "smart" or acting stupid.

People have died in traffic stops without doing any of those things.

Very few. Most of them hit the news with little detail, and some people assume they did nothing. Then the video comes out and they were usually doing something they should have known not to do.

"Very few." "Usually." That's not good enough.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 05 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no way to "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequence.

It didn't escape my notice that you classify the oppression of minorities, which I said was the thing that needed to be expunged, as a "deepest personal conviction." That's very interesting.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the oppression of minorities is
not one of *your* "deepest personal convictions," but it's interesting that
you would admit that it does exist as such for some.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 05 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no way to "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequence.

Speaking of not answering questions... You have left quite a few unanswered.
Do they make you uncomfortable?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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It didn't escape my notice that you classify the oppression of minorities, which I said was the thing that needed to be expunged, as a "deepest personal conviction." That's very interesting.

For people who are doing that, they probably are. Just like your deep convictions, including some you may not even be conscious of, I doubt they won't easily let that behavior go.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the oppression of minorities is not one of *your* "deepest personal convictions," but it's interesting that you would admit that it does exist as such for some.

You don't think it exists for some? If it doesn't, many of your past arguements here have absolutely *no* basis, rather than just a weaker basis than you claim they do.

I am willing to admit that some people obviously do, just like some
minorities obviously hold a deep personal conviction against white people. Otherwise, we'd have no racially motivated crimes (and we do!). You seem
to believe that a lot more people feel that way than I do, which is where
our differences start on the subject.

So you have still not really explained how you would plan to "expunge"
those who hold such deep-seated beliefs.


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You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no way to "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequence.

I did answer the question. To be more specific, in addition to laws and court decisions countering bigoted actions, I believe that making bigoted speech and actions socially shameful will do much to improve the situation.

Most of them are already against the law and people get convicted for them.
Most speech and actions that is actually bigoted, and not just deemed so
by SJWs and the Jeff-T's of the World, is also considered shameful.

So, no, claiming that things need to change but then mentioning things that already exists doesn't answer the question, unless the answer is "there is
not really a problem," or "I don't have an answer."

Very few. Most of them hit the news with little detail, and some people assume they did nothing. Then the video comes out and they were usually doing something they should have known not to do.

"Very few." "Usually." That's not good enough.

And yet, very few and usually seem to be more than good enough when you are telling me that these things rarely happen to non-minorities? What you
have said about those cases boils down to that.


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On 06 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

You didn't answer the whole question because you know there is no w "expunge" your deepest personal convictions without drastic consequ

I did answer the question. To be more specific, in addition to laws and decisions countering bigoted actions, I believe that making bigoted spee and actions socially shameful will do much to improve the situation.

Most of them are already against the law and people get convicted for them. Most speech and actions that is actually bigoted, and not just deemed so by SJWs and the Jeff-T's of the World, is also considered shameful.

Good.

It's interesting that you make a distinction between what you think is
bigoted and what others think is bigoted. It's in that area the bigotry is currently socially acceptable, and perhaps should not be.

So, no, claiming that things need to change but then mentioning things that already exists doesn't answer the question, unless the answer is "there is not really a problem," or "I don't have an answer."

I stated the problems that exist as well as the means needed to change them.
I don't know how much more of an answer you want.

Very few. Most of them hit the news with little detail, and some p assume they did nothing. Then the video comes out and they were us doing something they should have known not to do.

"Very few." "Usually." That's not good enough.

And yet, very few and usually seem to be more than good enough when you are telling me that these things rarely happen to non-minorities? What you have said about those cases boils down to that.

It shouldn't happen at all. There is quite a bit of leeway in "very few" and "usually," and even within those, blacks are still disproportionately
affected compared to whites.

Again, it shouldn't happen at all. And if it didn't happen at all, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? If you're up for demanding an end to all police brutality, that would certainly do the trick.

But it does happen, and it happens disproportionately by skin color, so there are really two things going on. And you seem to have a problem with neither.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 06 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

It didn't escape my notice that you classify the oppression of minoritie which I said was the thing that needed to be expunged, as a "deepest per conviction." That's very interesting.

For people who are doing that, they probably are. Just like your deep convictions, including some you may not even be conscious of, I doubt
they won't easily let that behavior go.

Oppressing people is not one of my deep convictions.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the oppression of minorities not one of *your* "deepest personal convictions," but it's interesting t you would admit that it does exist as such for some.

You don't think it exists for some? If it doesn't, many of your past arguements here have absolutely *no* basis, rather than just a weaker basis than you claim they do.

Of course I believe that it exists for some. It's just interesting to hear
you say it. Many conservatives would have us believe that we live in a post-racial society.

I am willing to admit that some people obviously do, just like some minorities obviously hold a deep personal conviction against white
people. Otherwise, we'd have no racially motivated crimes (and we do!). You seem to believe that a lot more people feel that way than I do,
which is where our differences start on the subject.

I would tentatively agree that we differ on our interpretations of the size
of the problem, although we have not exchanged numbers. It could be that we agree roughly on the numbers, but that I believe it to be a more serious problem than you do. There are many variables.

Racially motivated crimes are not the only measure of bigoted beliefs.
Speech, while protected, can also be used as a metric, and I believe that
there are more people who hold these convictions than speak about it, judging from attendance at alt-right rallies, "militia" membership numbers, etc.

So you have still not really explained how you would plan to "expunge" those who hold such deep-seated beliefs.

I said that we need to expunge the beliefs from our society, not expunge
those who hold them. I've explained that it would be a gradual, societal
change rather than an abrupt one. If you're waiting for me to say that we
need to start putting bigots into concentration camps (or worse), that's not going to happen.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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I stated the problems that exist as well as the means needed to change them. I don't know how much more of an answer you want.

What you stated, and maybe I missed something, were things that already
happen and already exist.

But it does happen, and it happens disproportionately by skin color, so there are really two things going on. And you seem to have a problem with neither.

Actually, if you look back, I don't think I ever said there was no such
thing as police brutality. My issue was with the claim that my doing
certain things when interacting with the police wasn't why I didn't have problems with them.


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It didn't escape my notice that you classify the oppression of minoriti
which I said was the thing that needed to be expunged, as a "deepest pe
conviction." That's very interesting.

For people who are doing that, they probably are. Just like your deep convictions, including some you may not even be conscious of, I doubt they won't easily let that behavior go.

Oppressing people is not one of my deep convictions.

I never said that, but I bet you have some deep convictions, and I bet you would not change them just because they offend someone.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the oppression of minoritie
not one of *your* "deepest personal convictions," but it's interesting you would admit that it does exist as such for some.

You don't think it exists for some? If it doesn't, many of your past arguements here have absolutely *no* basis, rather than just a weaker basis than you claim they do.

Of course I believe that it exists for some. It's just interesting to hear you say it. Many conservatives would have us believe that we live in a post-racial society.

The difference is I don't think you can control what people think, and that
you can never completely remove conflict from a society.

You seem to think we can "expunge" such thoughts and behaviors. Many of the behaviors are already against the law. I don't believe you can "expunge" people's thoughts and beliefs.

So you have still not really explained how you would plan to "expunge" those who hold such deep-seated beliefs.

I said that we need to expunge the beliefs from our society, not expunge those who hold them. I've explained that it would be a gradual, societal change rather than an abrupt one. If you're waiting for me to say that we need to start putting bigots into concentration camps (or worse), that's not going to happen.

Unless we gradually change the composition of our society, I don't think it
is possible. I wasn't expecting concentration camps, but was waiting for
some description of a "thought police." I would believe it might be
possible, and also very wrong, if things were to go sideways to the point
where people are afraid to say or do anything.


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On 07 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

I stated the problems that exist as well as the means needed to change t I don't know how much more of an answer you want.

What you stated, and maybe I missed something, were things that already happen and already exist.

Yes. Does that rule them out as a solution?

But it does happen, and it happens disproportionately by skin color, so are really two things going on. And you seem to have a problem with neit

Actually, if you look back, I don't think I ever said there was no such thing as police brutality. My issue was with the claim that my doing certain things when interacting with the police wasn't why I didn't have problems with them.

That you yourself have avoided police brutality is hardly a good reason to assume that everyone who didn't avoid it somehow "deserved" their fate.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 07 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Oppressing people is not one of my deep convictions.

I never said that, but I bet you have some deep convictions, and I bet
you would not change them just because they offend someone.

I would not be so sure about that. It would depend on the nature of the offense. I am willing to confront the mistakes my country has made, not out
of some hatred for it, but out of a desire to make it better.

Of course I believe that it exists for some. It's just interesting to he you say it. Many conservatives would have us believe that we live in a post-racial society.

The difference is I don't think you can control what people think, and that you can never completely remove conflict from a society.

Probably not. But you can minimize the spread of bad ideas by making them shameful to repeat in public.

You seem to think we can "expunge" such thoughts and behaviors. Many of the behaviors are already against the law. I don't believe you can "expunge" people's thoughts and beliefs.

I wasn't talking about expunging beliefs from people; I was talking about expunging them from society.

I said that we need to expunge the beliefs from our society, not expunge those who hold them. I've explained that it would be a gradual, societal change rather than an abrupt one. If you're waiting for me to say that w need to start putting bigots into concentration camps (or worse), that's going to happen.

Unless we gradually change the composition of our society, I don't think it is possible. I wasn't expecting concentration camps, but was waiting for some description of a "thought police." I would believe it might be possible, and also very wrong, if things were to go sideways to the point where people are afraid to say or do anything.

I think that we can gradually change the composition of our society, not by kicking anyone out, but by changing which beliefs are "acceptable." I don't advocate a government approach because I support the first amendment, but by making the expression of such beliefs have negative social consequences, I believe that we can change society.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 07 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Oppressing people is not one of my deep convictions.

I never said that, but I bet you have some deep convictions, and I bet
you would not change them just because they offend someone.

When I was in the first grade, I had a favorite pen. I would take it
everywhere with me, even onto the playground. There was another boy on the playground who was in the group that I played with, and he happened to be black. In the midst of playing, I once taunted him by making a racist remark comparing him to an animal. It was not out of hatred, and I saw nothing
wrong with it. He grabbed my favorite pen and threw it over a fence where I could not retrieve it.

I was shocked, and I asked him why he did that. He, in turn, asked me why I'd said what I'd said. I was immediately remorseful for what I'd said, and not because I'd lost my pen. I could tell that I'd hurt him and felt that the
loss of my favorite pen was a justifiable pennance for what I'd done. I apologized and never brought the pen up with him again.

Ever since then, I have been extremely sensitive to racially-tinged remarks directed toward people of color. So, can I change my beliefs and behavior because they offended someone? Absolutely.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Of course I believe that it exists for some. It's just interesting to h
you say it. Many conservatives would have us believe that we live in a post-racial society.

The difference is I don't think you can control what people think, and that you can never completely remove conflict from a society.

Probably not. But you can minimize the spread of bad ideas by making them shameful to repeat in public.

For most people, they already publically shameful. The people who are doing stupid things in public, whether in the name of a racist-group or BLM, don't have any shame and don't care what others think about what they do in
public.

You seem to think we can "expunge" such thoughts and behaviors. Many of the behaviors are already against the law. I don't believe you can "expunge" people's thoughts and beliefs.

I wasn't talking about expunging beliefs from people; I was talking about expunging them from society.

Well, as you are talking about making already publically shameful actions publically shameful, and the people we are talking about don't have any
shame about how they feel...

Unless we gradually change the composition of our society, I don't think it is possible. I wasn't expecting concentration camps, but was waiting for some description of a "thought police." I would believe it might be possible, and also very wrong, if things were to go sideways to the point
where people are afraid to say or do anything.

I think that we can gradually change the composition of our society, not by kicking anyone out, but by changing which beliefs are "acceptable." I don't advocate a government approach because I support the first amendment, but by making the expression of such beliefs have negative social consequences, I believe that we can change society.

So we need to make things that are already publically shameful publically shameful... ok.


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On 08 Nov 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Probably not. But you can minimize the spread of bad ideas by making the shameful to repeat in public.

For most people, they already publically shameful. The people who are doing stupid things in public, whether in the name of a racist-group or BLM, don't have any shame and don't care what others think about what
they do in public.

They were, until Trump came along. And then they all started crawling out of the woodwork.

You seem to think we can "expunge" such thoughts and behaviors. Man the behaviors are already against the law. I don't believe you can "expunge" people's thoughts and beliefs.

I wasn't talking about expunging beliefs from people; I was talking abou expunging them from society.

Well, as you are talking about making already publically shameful actions publically shameful, and the people we are talking about don't have any shame about how they feel...

Previously publically shameful actions, yes. And some new ones. Even the existing/previous ones weren't always shameful; they became that way over
time. I remember hearing my own grandfather drop the N-bomb like it was nothing.

Unless we gradually change the composition of our society, I don't it is possible. I wasn't expecting concentration camps, but was wa for some description of a "thought police." I would believe it mig possible, and also very wrong, if things were to go sideways to the point
where people are afraid to say or do anything.

I think that we can gradually change the composition of our society, not kicking anyone out, but by changing which beliefs are "acceptable." I do advocate a government approach because I support the first amendment, bu making the expression of such beliefs have negative social consequences, believe that we can change society.

So we need to make things that are already publically shameful publically shameful... ok.

Or things that were publicly shameful but aren't so much now. And some new ones. Homophobia, for example, has only become shameful within my lifetime
(and presumably yours as well).

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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