@TZ: ff10

What's your infatuation with the F-150? The current fad is the Escalade or the Expedition, unless you're on a farm.

I believe the current (2021) best-seller in the US is still the F-150. The Silverado and Ram 1500+ are second and third, respectively. I daresay it is not Bjorn who is infatuated with big-ass pickup trucks.

https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/

Before the US had their last serious economic downturn, the big three
auto manufacturers had gone towards selling more gas-guzzling trucks and
SUVs and stopped making some of their non-truck models. Gas prices started rising, people suddenly realized they could not afford to keep that type of auto gassed up, and that is part of what lead to the downturn.

Three or so years ago, before gas was even at its cheapest, those same companies (in particular, Ford) started towards the same trend again. They
got rid of their mid-size sedan (Fusion) and one of their smaller cars
(Focus) in favor of performance (Mustang), one small car (Fiesta), and a
bunch of SUV/truck flavors.

I noticed that they (the companies and consumers) were doing the same stupid thing again. While gas did go down some more, now that it has shot up, I am hoping I am not right but I don't see how that is going to work.


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I noticed that they (the companies and consumers) were doing the same stupid thing again. While gas did go down some more, now that it has
shot up, I am hoping I am not right but I don't see how that is going to work.

History does have a way of repeating itself...Sometimes the Big Guy needs to repeat His lesson a few times before we finally learn...(o_-)

McDoob
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On 19 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

I noticed that they (the companies and consumers) were doing the same stupid thing again. While gas did go down some more, now that it has shot up, I am hoping I am not right but I don't see how that is going work.

History does have a way of repeating itself...Sometimes the Big Guy
needs to repeat His lesson a few times before we finally learn...(o_-)

For what it's worth, the popularity of pick-ups and proto-SUVs in the 80s had
a lot to do with emission rules.

While "passenger vehicles" faced increased emission standards, and thus increased cost, "farm vehicles" did not. This made pick-ups and other
vehicles built on the same chassis cheaper compared to cars.

Jeff.

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History does have a way of repeating itself...Sometimes the Big Guy needs to repeat His lesson a few times before we finally learn...(o_-)

For what it's worth, the popularity of pick-ups and proto-SUVs in the 80s had a lot to do with emission rules.

While "passenger vehicles" faced increased emission standards, and thus increased cost, "farm vehicles" did not. This made pick-ups and other vehicles built on the same chassis cheaper compared to cars.

But didn't you also have to prove you were using them as farm vehicles? I
do 100% realize that those rules are not air-tight, but they won't give
farm vehicle exemptions to everyone.

That may be a state-level thing. I personally see a lot of "farm vehicles"
on the road here, so I know it is not super strict here, but I also only
see them in areas that have farms. You don't see many of them driving
around suburban Louisville, for example.


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While "passenger vehicles" faced increased emission standards, and thus increased cost, "farm vehicles" did not. This made pick-ups and other vehicles built on the same chassis cheaper compared to cars.

But didn't you also have to prove you were using them as farm vehicles?
I do 100% realize that those rules are not air-tight, but they won't give farm vehicle exemptions to everyone.

That may be a state-level thing. I personally see a lot of "farm vehicles" on the road here, so I know it is not super strict here, but I also only see them in areas that have farms. You don't see many of them driving around suburban Louisville, for example.

This is the case in Ontario, too. You can't get a 'farm plate' at all, unless you own a farm. And, if you aren't using it on the farm, they will crack down on you. Any officer of the law can hand out that particular fine, if they can provide 'reasonable doubt' of farm use.

You won't see many farm plates in Ottawa or Toronto, either. Obviously, there will be a few, since a farmer needs to go *somewhere* to get their supplies...

McDoob
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On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

While "passenger vehicles" faced increased emission standards, and increased cost, "farm vehicles" did not. This made pick-ups and oth vehicles built on the same chassis cheaper compared to cars.

But didn't you also have to prove you were using them as farm vehicle I do 100% realize that those rules are not air-tight, but they won't farm vehicle exemptions to everyone.

Nope. And you didn't get a farm exemption, either. That wasn't the point. The point was that vehicles manufactured as "farm vehicles" faced less stringent pollution requirements. After they were built, anyone could buy them for any purpose.

This is the case in Ontario, too. You can't get a 'farm plate' at all, unless you own a farm. And, if you aren't using it on the farm, they
will crack down on you. Any officer of the law can hand out that particular fine, if they can provide 'reasonable doubt' of farm use.

It wasn't about the "farm plates." It was about the class of vehicle. Someone decided that "farm vehicles" didn't need as demanding emissions/mpg requirements, and then defined a "farm vehicle" as a pick-up truck or
anything built on the same chassis as a pick-up truck. And then manufacturers and consumers ran with that.

There was no law that pick-up trucks could only be used as farm vehicles, though; If you needed the farm plates, you demonstrated eligibility for them and got them. If you didn't need them, it's still the same vehicle with or without the farm plates.

Jeff.

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But didn't you also have to prove you were using them as farm ve I do 100% realize that those rules are not air-tight, but they w farm vehicle exemptions to everyone.

Nope. And you didn't get a farm exemption, either. That wasn't the
point. The point was that vehicles manufactured as "farm vehicles" faced less stringent pollution requirements. After they were built, anyone
could buy them for any purpose.

You probably should have sent that part directly to Mike. (^_^)

This is the case in Ontario, too. You can't get a 'farm plate' at all unless you own a farm. And, if you aren't using it on the farm, they will crack down on you. Any officer of the law can hand out that particular fine, if they can provide 'reasonable doubt' of farm use.

It wasn't about the "farm plates." It was about the class of vehicle. Someone decided that "farm vehicles" didn't need as demanding emissions/mpg requirements, and then defined a "farm vehicle" as a
pick-up truck or anything built on the same chassis as a pick-up truck. And then manufacturers and consumers ran with that.

I think it's fair to say that you were not very well understood, there. Literally *anything* can be classed as a 'farm vehicle', and therefore be eligible for 'farm plates'.

Or, are you suggesting that a tractor and a pickup are the same? One is specifically intended for farm use, the other is not.

Either way, you're not being clear enough in your...generalizations...(o_-)

McDoob
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While "passenger vehicles" faced increased emission standards, and
increased cost, "farm vehicles" did not. This made pick-ups and ot
vehicles built on the same chassis cheaper compared to cars.

But didn't you also have to prove you were using them as farm vehicl
I do 100% realize that those rules are not air-tight, but they won't
farm vehicle exemptions to everyone.

Nope. And you didn't get a farm exemption, either. That wasn't the point. The point was that vehicles manufactured as "farm vehicles" faced less stringent pollution requirements. After they were built, anyone could buy them for any purpose.

Not real sure where or when "farm vehicles" (here, you apparently mean
pickup trucks) got less stringent pollution requirements, but here in
Kentucky in the late 1980's/1990's, the places that were testing vehicles
were testing all vehicles (*except* state and city ones!) and the only way having a "farm vehicle" would have exempted you was if you had an actual exemption for actually having a farm and using said vehicle on your farm
and/or for farm business.

I honestly don't know for sure that they were exempted, either. Simply
having a pickup truck sure didn't get you anywhere.

If pickup trucks in your area were being held to less stringent
requirements because they were all considered "farm vehicles," I again
suspect it was, like I mentioned in my original reply, because of the state
you were living in, or it was earlier in time than I would have been paying attention.


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On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

It wasn't about the "farm plates." It was about the class of vehicle. Someone decided that "farm vehicles" didn't need as demanding emissions/mpg requirements, and then defined a "farm vehicle" as a pick-up truck or anything built on the same chassis as a pick-up truc And then manufacturers and consumers ran with that.

I think it's fair to say that you were not very well understood, there. Literally *anything* can be classed as a 'farm vehicle', and therefore be eligible for 'farm plates'.

Or, are you suggesting that a tractor and a pickup are the same? One is specifically intended for farm use, the other is not.

Yes, literally anything can be classed as a farm vehicle, on the consumer
end. Not so on the manufacturer end. In the 80s the federal government passed legislation requiring all vehicles manufactured in the US to meet certain safety, fuel efficiency, and emissions standards. California also passed similar legislation, although more strict, which in effect meant that if a vehicle manufacturers who sold vehicles in California had to comply with the stricter set of standards.

Because tractors and the like are not the most efficient or clean vehicles,
an exemption to these manufacturing standards was carved out for farm
vehicles. At the time, most passenger vehicles were cars, pick-up trucks were primarily used as farm vehicles, and SUVs had not been designed yet.

So pick-ups, and anything built on a pick-up chassis, were exempted from the stricter standards applied to passenger vehicles *on the manufacturer's side.*

Since pick-ups -- and vehicles built on a pick-up chassis, which would apply
to SUVs when they came to market -- were built to lower standards, they were cheaper to produce and sell, and generally had more power than equivalent passenger vehicles.

Combine this with the sudden popularity of the "Urban Cowboy" lifestyle
ushered in by the movie of the same name, and sales of pick-ups skyrocketed.

Jeff.

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On 20 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

I honestly don't know for sure that they were exempted, either. Simply having a pickup truck sure didn't get you anywhere.

If pickup trucks in your area were being held to less stringent requirements because they were all considered "farm vehicles," I again suspect it was, like I mentioned in my original reply, because of the state you were living in, or it was earlier in time than I would have
been paying attention.

They were subject to less stringent *manufacturing* standards. Surely you remember the K-cars and all that, and government requirements for fuel efficiency?

Pick-ups and farm vehicles (and also motorcycles) were subject to less strict *manufacturing* standards because they were assumed to be, and at the time were, primarily farm vehicles (except for the motorcycles).

But anyone could buy one; most people just preferred cars at the time. Once
the pickups -- and later, early SUVs such as the Ford Bronco which were also exempt by virtue of incorporating a pick-up chassis -- became cheaper to manufacture and sell, they became more popular with the general public.

I was not referring to any "farm use" requirements on the consumer end, only the *manufacturing* end.

Jeff.

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Yes, literally anything can be classed as a farm vehicle, on the consumer end. Not so on the manufacturer end.

I cannot, and therefore will not, make an informed decision on this. Despite our European friends' mistakes, I am not a 'Murican, and I don't know the specifics of your laws.

Combine this with the sudden popularity of the "Urban Cowboy" lifestyle ushered in by the movie of the same name, and sales of pick-ups skyrocketed.

However, I 'feel' like there's more to it than just a movie. I 'feel' like
some of you 'Muricans are indeed overcompensating, just as I 'feel' like some of us Canucks are doing the same.

'Just because your truck is huge doesn't mean your dick is! If you want proof, I drive a Mazda, and your wife has told EVERYONE about my dick! Also, tell
your sister to call me...' (This is an actual thing I said in conversation.
The result was what you'd expect: an @$$-whuppin...for the truck owner...)

For the record, Jeff, I don't think of you as a 'Murican. There's a
difference between American and a 'Murican. F Yeah! Feel free to correct me
if I'm wrong here! (o_-)

McDoob
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On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

Combine this with the sudden popularity of the "Urban Cowboy" lifesty ushered in by the movie of the same name, and sales of pick-ups skyrocketed.

However, I 'feel' like there's more to it than just a movie. I 'feel'
like some of you 'Muricans are indeed overcompensating, just as I 'feel' like some of us Canucks are doing the same.

Well, yes, there's that. But also look at the historical album charts. There was a HUGE upswing in the popularity of country music here in the US around 1980 or so, especially in an urban context. Country music had always been a staple of rural radio, but urban stations changed their formats in droves to meet the increased popularity.

And along with the music came the boots, jeans, cowboy hats, and pick-ups.

Jeff.

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However, I 'feel' like there's more to it than just a movie. I 'feel' like some of you 'Muricans are indeed overcompensating, just as I 'fe like some of us Canucks are doing the same.

Well, yes, there's that. But also look at the historical album charts. There was a HUGE upswing in the popularity of country music here in the
US around 1980 or so, especially in an urban context. Country music had

Sir, I'm a 'rock star'. You lost me at 'country music'... (^_^)

And along with the music came the boots, jeans, cowboy hats, and
pick-ups.

I don't think this 'overcompensation' can be blamed on music or clothing...

Do you really think I look at the driver's clothes, or listen to his music, when he's 'rolling coal' in my face? This has much more to do with stupidity, or 'attitude', than clothing or music!

And more than one fool has learned that my SkyAktiv engine is no slouch.
And neither is my front bumper, when they try to bully me off the road...

'Officer, check my dashcam...everything you need is on there...'

McDoob
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On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

However, I 'feel' like there's more to it than just a movie. I ' like some of you 'Muricans are indeed overcompensating, just as like some of us Canucks are doing the same.

Well, yes, there's that. But also look at the historical album charts There was a HUGE upswing in the popularity of country music here in t US around 1980 or so, especially in an urban context. Country music h

Sir, I'm a 'rock star'. You lost me at 'country music'... (^_^)

Yeah, same. I have some admiration for certain works, but it's not my genre
of choice.

And along with the music came the boots, jeans, cowboy hats, and pick-ups.

I don't think this 'overcompensation' can be blamed on music or clothing...

Times were different then. It was more of a lifestyle.

Do you really think I look at the driver's clothes, or listen to his music, when he's 'rolling coal' in my face? This has much more to do
with stupidity, or 'attitude', than clothing or music!

Things now are very different than they were then. They're almost a
cartoonish reflection of that original movement.

And more than one fool has learned that my SkyAktiv engine is no slouch. And neither is my front bumper, when they try to bully me off the road...

Here we have pick-up drivers of all sorts. Some are aggressive; some are very ameniable.

'Officer, check my dashcam...everything you need is on there...'

There are incosiderate drivers in all sorts of vehicles. It's interesting
that Ontario would have this particular problem. I'm also not assuming that some Ontarians' preference for large vehicles has the same roots as here in
the US.

Jeff.

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There are incosiderate drivers in all sorts of vehicles. It's interesting that Ontario would have this particular problem. I'm also not assuming that some Ontarians' preference for large vehicles has the same roots as here in the US.

Honestly, I have no idea! I'm only assuming that they're making up for their tiny boxer shorts! Certainly, not every Canuck is as nice as everyone thinks
we are...just as not every American is a 'Murican...

McDoob
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On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

There are incosiderate drivers in all sorts of vehicles. It's interes that Ontario would have this particular problem. I'm also not assumin that some Ontarians' preference for large vehicles has the same roots here in the US.

Honestly, I have no idea! I'm only assuming that they're making up for their tiny boxer shorts! Certainly, not every Canuck is as nice as everyone thinks we are...just as not every American is a 'Murican...

Got me. My dad worked at a radio station in the 70s and 80s. In the early 80s the radio station switched from a "Bright & Beautiful" format to a country format. After that, we moved around the state as he was tasked with
converting other stations to the new format.

Jeff.

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They were subject to less stringent *manufacturing* standards. Surely you remember the K-cars and all that, and government requirements for fuel efficiency?

I remember the K cars, but only as part of the used car market, and as the
butt of many a joke on the Red Green Show.

Pick-ups and farm vehicles (and also motorcycles) were subject to less strict *manufacturing* standards because they were assumed to be, and at the time were, primarily farm vehicles (except for the motorcycles).

But anyone could buy one; most people just preferred cars at the time. Once the pickups -- and later, early SUVs such as the Ford Bronco which were also exempt by virtue of incorporating a pick-up chassis -- became cheaper to manufacture and sell, they became more popular with the general public.

I was not referring to any "farm use" requirements on the consumer end, only the *manufacturing* end.

My point was that if you bought one, it would still be held to the same standard as any other registered vehicle in areas that did actual emissions testing (again, unless you were the city or the state).

My guess is that the point in time you are talking about was slightly
before the point in time I am talking about.


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There are incosiderate drivers in all sorts of vehicles. It's interesting that Ontario would have this particular problem. I'm also not assuming
that some Ontarians' preference for large vehicles has the same roots as here in the US.

(1) that they need to drive places that require 4 wheel/all wheel drive, or
at least better ground clearance;
(2) they need to haul things often;
(3) they have the belief that they need to sit higher off the ground in
order to see the road;
(4) some other reason that makes about as much sense as #3

Not everyone falls into the last two categories, and you are right that inconsiderate drivers drive all kinds of vehicles, from large trucks to motorcycles.


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Got me. My dad worked at a radio station in the 70s and 80s. In the early 80s the radio station switched from a "Bright & Beautiful" format to a country format. After that, we moved around the state as he was tasked with converting other stations to the new format.

"Bright and Beautiful" was on the way out at about that time. The EZ
listening stations I was familiar with became oldies rock or talk show
format stations. I am not surprised that some became country, or Top 40
pop, or whatever else. Heck, that was even the subject of a popular
sitcome at the time, "WKRP in Cincinnati," where they went from "beautiful"
to Rock.

I assume you are talking about Texas? In the early 1990's, I worked for an Urban Jewish person who loved Seinfeld and "country music." He got that taste for the music after living in Houston for a few years. He was originally from Louisville. I mention him being Jewish only because he was the first
Jewish person I knew who professed a liking for "country music." Also, I
am putting "country music" in quotes because most everything I heard him
ever listen to was "pop-country," most of which I could not stand.

IMHO, what he seemed to like most about it was going to "country music"
bars and trying to pick up women, which is why he didn't understand my love
for Pink Floyd, which didn't seem quite as likely to draw dance-club women
as what he listened to.

I mention him at all because I wonder if this "conversion" to country music
was not especially a big-city Texas thing. Although I did notice some
increase in people wearing boots during the time you mention, people who
were into "Hee-Haw" and listening to actual country music didn't seem to
change much around here.


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