Hello, All!

Being interested in history, I wanted to ask: before the advent of the Internet, when connecting by dial-up modems how would you solve this problem when you needed to dial other cities or countries to exchange packets? Because in my country it was free to dial phones in my city in the beginning '90s. But to call other cities or even countries was very expensive. Was there an alternative before tcp/ip could be used when internet was made available for everyone? Or you would pay from your own pocket to dial other countries?

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 15:08, you wrote to All:

when internet was made available for everyone? Or you would pay from
your own pocket to dial other countries?

Yes. Sometimes you have be a grown man and pay for your own hobbies instead of asking your mommy to pay for ya.
Or need to find someone who'll pay for you. It always works like this.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

when internet was made available for everyone? Or you would pay
from your own pocket to dial other countries?

Yes. Sometimes you have be a grown man and pay for your own hobbies instead of asking your mommy to pay for ya. Or need to find someone
who'll pay for you. It always works like this.

I'm asking because being interested in history I've heard of other networks (like X.25 or X.75 even in the '70s) before tcp/ip. And I know that people were using them. I wonder if that could have solved international telephone expenses.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 16:27, you wrote to me:

I'm asking because being interested in history I've heard of other networks (like X.25 or X.75 even in the '70s) before tcp/ip. And I

"X.75 network" is just some nonsense bullshit. Please stop lame trolling with fake name, you've been already asked to stop doing this in other echoes.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

"X.75 network" is just some nonsense bullshit.

It's what I have read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.75
I'm not "inventing" anything.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

On 2022 Jan 28 15:08:08, you wrote to All:

Or you would pay from your own pocket to dial other countries?

you paid... that's one of the reasons for fidonet's structure... nets were to have folks in local calling areas grouped together...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Where is the non-smoking lifeboat?
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 16:58, you wrote to me:

"X.75 network" is just some nonsense bullshit.

It's what I have read:

Looks like you were teached about networks by some thrown out of Soviet Defense Institute employee, because they were just copying western design while drinking bad coffee and thinking where to buy more toilet paper :)

I'm not "inventing" anything.

I am sure about that, nothing invented. There's nothing like "X.75 network" (you can't even read your link) and you are destorying Fidonet's idea - where people are talking to each other using real names.
Wasn't twitter created for such childish games?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, mark!

On 2022 Jan 28 15:08:08, you wrote to All:

Or you would pay from your own pocket to dial other countries?

you paid... that's one of the reasons for fidonet's structure... nets
were to have folks in local calling areas grouped together...

I keep going back in history (before I was born) and I find out that before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data networks in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_switching#X.25_era
Did you use any of them back in the day? You would dial any of these networks to connect to different universities or to copy files or read news or for what? I have no idea! It happened before I was born. That's why I'm asking.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 17:30, you wrote to mark lewis:

before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data networks
in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet", which was ArpaNet. Why you are sill posting those childish posts? :)



Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

"X.75 network" is just some nonsense bullshit.

It's what I have read:

Looks like you were teached about networks by some thrown out of
Soviet Defense Institute employee, because they were just copying
western design while drinking bad coffee and thinking where to buy
more toilet paper :)

I'm sure I read somewere that X.75 was the preferred protocol in Europe used by BBS or FidoNet users. I may be wrong! But I still am interested how things worked back then. But I can't imagine a sysop with 1200 or 2400 baud modem calling from Europe to America to exchange mail between Zone 2 and Zone 1 even in the '80s. Again: I may be wrong. I didn't live in those times. My first dial-up modem was bought in 1999 to connect to the Internet.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Dmitry!

Friday January 28 2022 17:30, you wrote to mark lewis:

before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data
networks in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet",

Did you use any of those X.25-based public data networks before tcp/ip replaced them? Where there any hosts in FIDO with X25 links as an alternative to direct dial phone calls? Again: I'm asking these questions because I don't know how things worked back then. But if you know better just answer my questions.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 18:09, you wrote to me:

I'm sure I read somewere that X.75 was the preferred protocol in
Europe used by BBS or FidoNet users.

Your heard it from some Soviet engeneer? She is lame, don't listen to her.

And again - your name is fake. If your idea was to present Russia as stream of trolls coming with stupid questions with fake names - you are the winner!

interested how things worked back then. But I can't imagine a sysop

That's why you are not a writer! Imagination is a gift ;)

with 1200 or 2400 baud modem calling from Europe to America to
exchange mail between Zone 2 and Zone 1 even in the '80s. Again: I may

People were using all available techs and chances.

be wrong. I didn't live in those times. My first dial-up modem was
bought in 1999 to connect to the Internet.

Your mommy bought it for you, right?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 18:26, you wrote to me:

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet",

Did you use any of those X.25-based public data networks before tcp/ip

I am still using them.

replaced them? Where there any hosts in FIDO with X25 links as an alternative to direct dial phone calls? Again: I'm asking these

Yes, there are still Fidonet nodes with X.25 connection.

questions because I don't know how things worked back then. But if you know better just answer my questions.

Why ask those questons with fake name?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

People were using all available techs and chances.

be wrong. I didn't live in those times. My first dial-up modem
was bought in 1999 to connect to the Internet.

Your mommy bought it for you, right?

No! I went to the store with my brother who is 2 years older :)


Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Dmitry!

I'm sure I read somewere that X.75 was the preferred protocol in
Europe used by BBS or FidoNet users.

Your heard it from some Soviet engeneer? She is lame, don't listen to
her.

So you wanna to say that there is no such thing as X.75 or that it was not used by Fidonet users?

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 19:07, you wrote to me:

be wrong. I didn't live in those times. My first dial-up modem
was bought in 1999 to connect to the Internet.

Your mommy bought it for you, right?

No! I went to the store with my brother who is 2 years older :)

So your mommy bought it to you and your 2 years older brother?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 19:15, you wrote to me:

Your heard it from some Soviet engeneer? She is lame, don't
listen to her.

So you wanna to say that there is no such thing as X.75 or that it was
not used by Fidonet users?

Yes.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Did you use any of them back in the day? You would dial any of these networks to connect to different universities or to copy files or read
news or for what? I have no idea! It happened before I was born. That's
why I'm asking.

I started in IT in 1970 and we used X25 but calling it dial-up is a tad overkill.

Our implementations were 4-wire synchronous with 2 wires providing upstream and 2 wires for the downstream. Very bulky equipment until we got decent modem racks. The speeds were not gigantic ... 4800 bps to be shared by up to 8 workstations ...

As for your Fido-question, we have tried a number of things ...

Or you would pay from your own pocket to dial other countries?

you paid... that's one of the reasons for fidonet's structure... nets
were to have folks in local calling areas grouped together...

Mark knows shit of this because the Z1-world was never concerned about dialing international... Here's how it worked in this part of the free world ...

1/ In Belgium we set-up a legal non-profit entity called B-Net ... we ran a fido-style network sponsored by a bank for schools ... every school was a node in a private zone. The bank paid. As we had practically no costs (the schools dialed-out) it was like 99% profit. That money was used to pay Randy Bush 1:105/42 in the US to call and deliver whatever we wanted to a node in Belgium 2:29/777 ... as we got the mail for free, we distributed it for free to other regions on the premise they also distributed it for free. Some people didn't like the "free" part of that ... the TAP-project (Trans Atlantic Project) with Homrighausen and Jansen and their fat buddy...

Along the road we also picked-up stuff from TAP's competitor TIPTOP run by Henk Wevers and I think Michiel vander Vlist. The problem there was that Wevers' mailer Dutchie was very unstable for long connections (big files) and when a connection was lost, he did not resume but started all the way from the beginning over.

In 1995 we set up a node in the computer center of the university of Antwerp 2:292/875 and it picked-up/delivered mail and files to/from other people having access to academic networks abroad via UUCP.

By the time that ran out mid 2001 when someone at the university started wondering what that lone specific PC in the rack was doing all the time and switched it off, we had IP and Binkd thanks to the developers of the software.

2/ Internal distribution in the country was cumbersome because of ridiculous calling costs. We did the whole thing with transfering the stuff on 3 1/2 inch diskettes, We also used Bernoullie drives which were shuttled around. Sometimes by bike.

At one time we had a "Sinterklaas" node in R29 ... It only ran at night from a dedicated fax-line at my office ... no faxes at night, so ... I had a PC there with a sponsored modem-card from ZyXel which no-one knew about or even understood ... remarkable for a telco but people there had never heard about a Hayes-compatible modem. So when leaving the office the PC remained powered-on and the mailer was started on a D'Bridge implementation. It ran all night (and all week-end) until 6am about when it went to sleep as staff started to arrive. During the night it made several call-out runs, tossed mail and distributed again. All at no cost for the hobby during times of costly calls. That system ran a long time until I got a call from an engineer in telephony somewhere saying that my fax was misbehaving making ghost calls and they'd send someone to check the line. I pulled out the screwdriver, yanked the modem and put it on a pile of various cards where it wouldn't attract attention and removed the line. When the technical crew arrived to assess the situation they couldn't find anything wrong with the ... fax ... switched it off/on, tried it and concluded "it's a mistery" ... that line had been racking-up a theoretical call cost of 600.000BFr/month, which is around 15.000 Euro or US$16.700 about ... a month. But as it was he phone-company itself, nobody thought it worth to have a look at it.

After that period which lasted for quite a while, we went back to regular PSTN-calls. ISDN appeared on the horizon somewhere along the line but it really didn't take-off that well and when we had IP; only some die-hards kept using ISDN.

3/ We have done test with transmiting packages via hidden lines in a TV-screen. Overhere the screen was composed of 625 lines, but in reality there were more and sometimes these lines were used for specific applications ... TeleText was one, VideoTex was also one ... and we had the opportunity to transmit a high volume of stuff that way but it only really worked for files, unsuited for echomail/netmail... That was only downstream, upstream transmission was via a dedicated line ...

In North America they had a deal via a satellite called "Planet Connect" which kind of functioned under the same principle, but you needed a satellite dish instead of cable-TV. Maybe someone from Z1 can give details.

4/ Some countries had CSO's ... Cost Sharing Organisations ... where people chipped-in money to share the cost. I know for certain there were at least 2 of these in the Netherlands. Don't know about other countries. The idea behind a CSO was real but back in those days people also thought about making money with Fidonet and began charging more than the actual cost. Maybe people from R28 with more knowledge have a story here.

I know for certain one ZC tried to make money out of this Felix Kasza. He offered mail with a pay scheme ... actually for a while he made money and lived off it but when he got more and more unwilling 'customers' refusing to pay he slammed the door and dropped-out in no-time at all.

His successor in Z2 Ron Dwight promoted a lot Jens Mueller who started a 24-line system 2:24/24 and called it Eurostar BBS and linked in to the US star system. Him and Ron had dealings giving Ron free mail and free access to the closed ZSEGS file-distribution between the ZCs. So when Ron had been chastised by the ZCC for reasons I don't remember anymore he resigned and heavily promoted Jens as the next ZC ... that was 1994 ... I ran too with a specific campaign and won. I was a heavy supporter of free access to mail, which does not mean 'for free', and within a year and 3 months 2:24/24 canceled his lines and closed shop.

Are you OK with all of this?

Maybe I should expand this into an article for fidonews ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello, Ward!

Saturday January 29 2022 01:42, you wrote to Ghil Zvidgzul:

I started in IT in 1970 and we used X25 but calling it dial-up is a
tad overkill.

But it wasn't in 1970 :)

That money was used to pay Randy Bush 1:105/42 in the US to call and

That's right, because calling from US was cheaper since 1900 (at least) to any country in the world, actually. With some tricks, for sure.

Maybe I should expand this into an article for fidonews ...

Great! Thanks for such detailed story. I've just published my personal acticle about how Soviet Union was connected to the "Western world's networks" in 70s and it was, actually, a story how people were managing to talk to each other, despite state ideologies.

I would be happy to meet you in person in Belgium and do some interview about Fidonet, if you don't mind?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

Your heard it from some Soviet engeneer? She is lame, don't
listen to her.

So you wanna to say that there is no such thing as X.75 or that
it was not used by Fidonet users?

Ok. I'll wait for the answer of european users who may or may not have used X.75 protocol.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Ward!

Are you OK with all of this?

Maybe I should expand this into an article for fidonews ...

It would be great!
I can only share what I found today:
FidoNet in Africa
https://www.africa.upenn.edu/E_Mail/FidoNet_11701.html
Fidonet in China:
https://tinyurl.com/2p99ahww
It would be great to hear how it was in Australia, Latin America etc.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Friday January 28 2022 19:50, you wrote to me:

Ok. I'll wait for the answer of european users who may or may not have used X.75 protocol.

I've used X.75 protocol couple of years :)

Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

I would be happy to meet you in person in Belgium and do some interview about Fidonet, if you don't mind?

Let me put it this way ... there once was a Russian sysop, and he's reading here, who was invited at a sysop-meeting in Germany as he just passed along and he shoved me a microphone under my nose and started asking me auestion what's your opinion on this, what's your opinion on that probably having promised Russian sysops he was going to grill me ... there's some video from that meeting at fidonet.org, not the 'interview' ... and that didn't work well.

If you're going to be around and want to organize something, take it to netmail ... or if you would like to make it an online thing ... take it to netmail.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ward!

Saturday January 29 2022 02:22, you wrote to me:

Let me put it this way ... there once was a Russian sysop, and he's

Our RC?

Take care,

Let's move to netmail.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

Let me put it this way ... there once was a Russian sysop, and he's

Our RC?

I think he was a nice man and a gentleman, also a reliable colleague and RC, but I think he was not ready for our style of getting together, bulshitting about whatever, drinking good beers, talking about Bob Bashe's cat ... while he probably was geared towards Fido-technical stuff.

I still like the man ... doing a good job now elsewhere...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Ward,

On Saturday January 29 2022 01:42, you wrote to Ghil Zvidgzul:

Along the road we also picked-up stuff from TAP's competitor TIPTOP
run by Henk Wevers and I think Michiel vander Vlist.

The Dutch TipTop gate (2:28/777) was run by Evert Bruinsma. I was his co-sysop operating as 2:28/777.5 at the time.

Henk Wevers ran the European TipTop Gate (2:2/777).

The problem there was that Wevers' mailer Dutchie was very unstable
for long connections (big files) and when a connection was lost, he
did not resume but started all the way from the beginning over.

Mwah, that is an exageration. Henk had a dial up link to to a gateway located at UUnet in Amsterdam. From there there was a UUCP link sponsored by UUnet to Randy Bush.

The reason TipTop eventually collapsed was not the instability of Henk Wever's system, but the fact that telecoms kept laying cables from Europe to the US and invested less in cables within Europe. At some point calling from most countries in Europe to the US was /cheaper/ than calling most countries within Europe. So people in Europe started calling directly to the US instead of calling the EU TipTop gate. That was the end op TipTop.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello, Dmitry!

Maybe I should expand this into an article for fidonews ...

Great! Thanks for such detailed story. I've just published my personal acticle about how Soviet Union was connected to the "Western world's networks" in 70s and it was, actually, a story how people were
managing to talk to each other, despite state ideologies.

Can I get a link of the article?

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Saturday January 29 2022 05:36, you wrote to me:

Great! Thanks for such detailed story. I've just published my
personal acticle about how Soviet Union was connected to the
"Western world's networks" in 70s and it was, actually, a story
how people were managing to talk to each other, despite state
ideologies.

Can I get a link of the article?

Yes, if you'll ask me with you real name.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Michiel!

29 Jan 22 10:33, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

MvdV> Mwah, that is an exageration. Henk had a dial up link to to a gateway
MvdV> located at UUnet in Amsterdam. From there there was a UUCP link
MvdV> sponsored by UUnet to Randy Bush.

Almost correct. Randy Bush had met someone from Eunet on airplane flight.
Eunet provided an account on their Amsterdam node. Files were sent and
received using uucp over Pots, and from there over uunet or whatever to a
host where Randy had access.

Henk was not interested in setting up UUCP and asked me if I could maintain
the Eunet route to Randy. I remeber making a utillity to prepare
fidonet bundles to be sent over uucp. This utillity was later also
adapted for use by Robert Brown.

When Randy discontinued his services for fidonet distribution, I was asked
to connect to John Souvestre's South Star. By that time I had a dialin
internet account and the exchange was done using FTP. I got reimbursed for
what I had to pay to John. The fidonet node I used was 2:500/3 a node
sponsored by HCC. When John ended South Star, I moved to Dale Ross.
I think at some time his system was stuck by lightning. That was the
end of my involvement in trans atlantic traffic.

By that time the story below became true.

MvdV> The reason TipTop eventually collapsed was not the instability of
MvdV> Henk
MvdV> Wever's system, but the fact that telecoms kept laying cables from
MvdV> Europe to the US and invested less in cables within Europe. At some
MvdV> point calling from most countries in Europe to the US was /cheaper/ than
MvdV> calling most countries within Europe. So people in Europe started
MvdV> calling directly to the US instead of calling the EU TipTop gate. That
MvdV> was the end op TipTop.


Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

On 2022 Jan 28 17:30:16, you wrote to me:

Did you use any of them back in the day?

i did not knowingly, at that time, use them...

You would dial any of these networks to connect to different
universities or to copy files or read news or for what?

i don't recall doing that but i did use my Cap'n Crunch whistle a few times...

I have no idea! It happened before I was born. That's why I'm asking.

learning from the past is a GoodThing<tm> ;)

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Most of the stuff people worry about never happens.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2022 Jan 29 02:00:36, you wrote to Ghil Zvidgzul:

before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data networks
in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet", which was ArpaNet. Why you are sill
posting those childish posts? :)

i see no problem with them asking their questions... i certainly don't see their questions or posts as childish... i see no problem in sharing the memories one might have of those times...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... And our spellcheckers are down.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2022 Jan 28 18:09:38, you wrote to Dmitry Protasoff:

But I can't imagine a sysop with 1200 or 2400 baud modem calling from Europe to America to exchange mail between Zone 2 and Zone 1 even in
the '80s.

that's exactly what happened, though... in the mid '80s, my portion of one phone bill was $400+US for several months... all of it due to use of a computer on the phone lines... then i set up my own BBS and let other's call my system... the only non-local area calls my system made at that time was to one of the large echomail systems in another state to pull in the waiting traffic for my system... at that time i think $150US to $200US for the phone bill... it would have been more if i had been calling a system within my state but outside of my local calling area, the phone bill would have been more... in-state long distance is more expensive than out-of-state LD...

that average phone bill stayed in that same range even as i acquired high speed modems... why? i moved more traffic in the same amount of time at the higher speeds... when the internet came along, my phone bill dropped because i was able to make a local call and move some traffic through that local POTS connection instead of over LD POTS connections...

my system has, numerous times in the past pre-internet days, called luxembourg, australia, england, and germany (to list a few) to deliver fidonet netmail and files over POTS lines... the cost wasn't more than $1US for each call... it wasn't so bad but it also wasn't a lot of traffic every day... if my pockets had been deeper back in the day, i might have considered LD hubbing like that sooner than i did...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... If it weren't for the last minute, nothing'd get done.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

my system has, numerous times in the past pre-internet days, called luxembourg, australia,

FrontDoor related? ;)



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, mark!

Sunday January 30 2022 04:14, you wrote to me:

i see no problem with them asking their questions... i certainly don't

He is our local Russian troll who is posting from multiple fake names and who is not interested in anything except his ego. So it was just my attempt to remind him about that :) He's main "ego" is quite aggressive anti-western guy.

But your memoires are more than appreciated, of course. Especially since most of the interviews available online are about US centric history of Fidonet's creation. This needs to be changed.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, Dmitry!

He is our local Russian troll who is posting from multiple fake names
and who is not interested in anything except his ego. So it was just
my attempt to remind him about that :) He's main "ego" is quite
aggressive anti-western guy.

I'm not anti-western, and I'm not russian. And I think you're confusing me with someone else because I don't use multiple names, just this. And I told already that I don't agree that you have to stick with the name in your passport because your parents gave it to you, you can chose your own name.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ghil!

Sunday January 30 2022 14:20, you wrote to me:

confusing me with someone else because I don't use multiple names,

You do.

just this. And I told already that I don't agree that you have to
stick with the name in your passport because your parents gave it to
you, you can chose your own name.

Just not 3 different one, but with the same editor/tosser software version :)


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

On 29/01/2022 08:30, Ghil Zvidgzul : mark lewis wrote:

I keep going back in history (before I was born) and I find out that before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data networks in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_switching#X.25_era

The AUSPAC network mentioned in the above link was owned/operated by Australia's largest ISP/telcom provider. One had to pay a subscription fee to access it. The modems operated in a split speed mode, 1200bps inbound and 75bps out. It was sort of like a Fidonet ANSI graphic screen.

I was a subscriber in those days but don't remember how much I paid.

--
Regards
David

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* Origin: Nanago, Qld (3:640/305)

On 29/01/2022 09:00, Dmitry Protasoff : Ghil Zvidgzul wrote:

 GZ>> before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data networks
 GZ>> in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet", which was ArpaNet. Why you are sill
posting those childish posts? :)

Maybe he is a child?
--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Nanago, Qld (3:640/305)

Hello, David!

I keep going back in history (before I was born) and I find out
that before the Internet in '70s and '80s there were Public data
networks in Europe, America and Australia I had no idea about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_switching#X.25_era

The AUSPAC network mentioned in the above link was owned/operated by Australia's largest ISP/telcom provider. One had to pay a subscription
fee to access it. The modems operated in a split speed mode, 1200bps inbound and 75bps out. It was sort of like a Fidonet ANSI graphic
screen.

And you had access to what? Files? Email? You could chat? What could you do if you had access to AUSPAC? How things worked back then? Or using this network you could join other networks without paying too much for the phone calls?

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, David!

Monday January 31 2022 15:44, you wrote to me:

X.25 is a "son" of "Internet", which was ArpaNet. Why you are
sill posting those childish posts? :)

Maybe he is a child?

No, he is in his 30s.

But in fact BBN (Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.) created Arpanet's core and after that sidelaunched Telenet using the same software with some additions.
Telenet was the "USA" in X.25 negotiations with European's telcos, so X.25 is a common son of american and french companies (Telenet and PTT) with some smaller ideas from other countries.



Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

On 31/01/2022 20:31, Ghil Zvidgzul : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> The modems operated in a split speed mode, 1200bps
 DD>> inbound and 75bps out. It was sort of like a Fidonet ANSI graphic
 DD>> screen.

And you had access to what? Files? Email? You could chat? What could you do if you had access to AUSPAC? How things worked back then? Or using
this network you could join other networks without paying too much for
the phone calls?

It did not offer email that I recall, and was pretty much an online database, with a few other data suppliers blended in.

No file downloads that I can remember, nor chat with other users.

They supplied the required terminal program.

Call cost was for a local call.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: St Helens, Qld (3:640/305)

On 2022 Jan 30 12:47:06, you wrote to me:

my system has, numerous times in the past pre-internet days, called
luxembourg, australia,

FrontDoor related? ;)

those two were FD and RA related...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... My idea of a good hot dog is a pig between two loafs of bread.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

my system has, numerous times in the past pre-internet days, called luxembourg, australia, england, and germany (to list a few) to deliver fidonet netmail...

Big deal ... ny system called 5 ZCs weekly at least twice plus countles European regions which was "always" an international call ... you have no idea ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 2022 Feb 02 18:59:02, you wrote to me:

my system has, numerous times in the past pre-internet days, called
luxembourg, australia, england, and germany (to list a few) to
deliver fidonet netmail...

Big deal ... ny system called 5 ZCs weekly at least twice plus
countles European regions which was "always" an international call ...

i answered a question asked of me... what you and your system did and do are not my concern as long as they can communicate when necessary...

you have no idea ...

stop trying to make some sort of argument or big deal out of it...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Slooooooowly I turned. Step by step I crossed the expanse......
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

mark,

you have no idea ...

stop trying to make some sort of argument or big deal out of it...

Stop trying to make a big deal out of what you think you did ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 2022 Feb 03 13:22:16, you wrote to me:

you have no idea ...

stop trying to make some sort of argument or big deal out of it...

Stop trying to make a big deal out of what you think you did ...

i know what i have done in the years i've been in fidonet... i'm certainly not trying to make a big deal of it... all i've done is answer a few questions asked of me... you are the one trying to blow things out of proportion...

EOT

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Friendly angel, come to me.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

mark lewis wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

you have no idea ...

stop trying to make some sort of argument or big deal out of it...

Stop trying to make a big deal out of what you think you did ...

i know what i have done in the years i've been in fidonet... i'm
certainly not trying to make a big deal of it... all i've done is
answer a few questions asked of me... you are the one trying to blow things out of proportion...

Let's just take a moment out of the back-and-forth to appreciate the fact
that I could get 3 messages in this thread in the same message packet. Back when Mark was polling ZCs, it'd have taken days to get back and forth. :)




... Emphasize the flaws
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Kurt,

Let's just take a moment out of the back-and-forth to appreciate the fact that I could get 3 messages in this thread in the same message packet.
Back when Mark was polling ZCs, it'd have taken days to get back and
forth. :)

You are aware, of course, that ZCs are not primary mailmovers by definition ... 8-)

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Ward Dossche wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

You are aware, of course, that ZCs are not primary mailmovers by definition ... 8-)

Yes, nor are RCs, but here I am routing mail for my region. Many hats, these days.


... Think of the radio
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

You are aware, of course, that ZCs are not primary mailmovers by
definition ... 8-)

Yes, nor are RCs, but here I am routing mail for my region. Many hats, these days.

I always routed and moved netmail as soon as I had a *C-hat. It is so logical to do that ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Feb 05 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)