Hello Everybody,

Who sez Batman and Robin have to be male?

Joe Biden drops out of race, handing off football to Kamala Harris.

You do realize what that means.

In every poll, including in Florida (Trump's home state), women
come out ahead. Putting two of them together makes them unbeatable.

Joe Biden has endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will win.
That was the first thing coming out of his mouth after he dropped
out of the race.

Barack Obama has also endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will win.
But he is one smart cookie, knowing it takes more than one state to
win the presidency.

That is why Barack Obama did one better, by endorsing another woman
to join the ticket. And we all know who that woman is.

And being from Chicago, who better than to introduce her?

For Life,
Lee

--
Biden 2024 - Finisth The Job

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 24.07.2024 01:51

LL> Joe Biden drops out of race, handing off football to Kamala
LL> Harris. You do realize what that means.
LL> In every poll, including in Florida (Trump's home state), women
LL> come out ahead. Putting two of them together makes them
LL> unbeatable. Joe Biden has endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she
LL> will win. That was the first thing coming out of his mouth
LL> after he dropped out of the race.
LL> Barack Obama has also endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will
LL> win. But he is one smart cookie, knowing it takes more than one
LL> state to win the presidency.
LL> That is why Barack Obama did one better, by endorsing another
LL> woman ??to join the ticket. And we all know who that woman is.
LL> And being from Chicago, who better than to introduce her

She has many trumps in her sleeve. How do you like her slogan "Let
America be free from old farts!" ;-)

Indeed a young person 100 times unlikely will unleash a nuclear war than
a person who is going to die soon anyway. ;)

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2024
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday July 24 2024 12:21, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

Indeed a young person 100 times unlikely will unleash a nuclear war
than a person who is going to die soon anyway. ;)

I am happy that you are waiting for the death of Putin, as many other Russians are doing at this moment :)
We don't need old farting gangsters in Kremlin.



Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Alexander,

Joe Biden drops out of race, handing off football to Kamala
Harris. You do realize what that means.
In every poll, including in Florida (Trump's home state), women
come out ahead. Putting two of them together makes them
unbeatable. Joe Biden has endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she
will win. That was the first thing coming out of his mouth
after he dropped out of the race.
Barack Obama has also endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will
win. But he is one smart cookie, knowing it takes more than one
state to win the presidency.
That is why Barack Obama did one better, by endorsing another
woman to join the ticket. And we all know who that woman is.
And being from Chicago, who better than to introduce her

She has many trumps in her sleeve. How do you like her slogan "Let
America be free from old farts!" ;-)

Kamala is brat.

Nobody can argue with that.

Especially those who were at the Essence Festival in New Orleans
last weekend, with her showing us all the right moves.

Indeed a young person 100 times unlikely will unleash a nuclear war than a person who is going to die soon anyway. ;)

Toddlers for President! That should be the world's motto!

For Life,
Lee

--
The first thing a cult does is claim that everyone else is lying to you.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 25.07.2024 18:58

LL>>> Joe Biden drops out of race, handing off football to Kamala
LL>>> Harris. You do realize what that means. In every poll, including
LL>>> in Florida (Trump's home state), women come out ahead. Putting
LL>>> two of them together makes them unbeatable. Joe Biden has
LL>>> endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will win. That was the first
LL>>> thing coming out of his mouth after he dropped out of the race.
LL>>> Barack Obama has also endorsed Kamala Harris, knowing she will
LL>>> win. But he is one smart cookie, knowing it takes more than one
LL>>> state to win the presidency. That is why Barack Obama did one
LL>>> better, by endorsing another woman to join the ticket. And we all
LL>>> know who that woman is. And being from Chicago, who better than
LL>>> to introduce her

ak>> She has many trumps in her sleeve. How do you like her slogan "Let
ak>> America be free from old farts!" ;-)

LL> Kamala is brat.
LL> Nobody can argue with that.

IMHO President must be a part of a team. He must not be allowed to do
whatever he wants. In this light Biden also submits itself to many
advisers. It makes him more or less safe. ;=) And in general a person
with a great personal power is bad -- practically all wars were started
by them.

LL> Especially those who were at the Essence Festival in New Orleans
LL> last weekend, with her showing us all the right moves.

ak>> Indeed a young person 100 times unlikely will unleash a nuclear
ak>> war than a person who is going to die soon anyway. ;)

LL> Toddlers for President! That should be the world's motto!

A 59 years old is not a toddler at all.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2024
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello, alexander!

Sunday July 28 2024 18:29, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

IMHO President must be a part of a team. He must not be allowed to do whatever he wants.

Like Ukrainians tried to stop Yanukovich, but we never really tried hard to stop our weirdo Putin?

Or do the people of your city not even try to elect their own city mayor because they know that they are not allowed to do so by the mighty Moscovites? :))

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry,

On Sunday July 28 2024 16:38, you wrote to alexander koryagin:

but we never really tried hard to stop our weirdo Putin?

So why did you not vote him out when you still could?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Sunday July 28 2024 18:31, you wrote to me:

but we never really tried hard to stop our weirdo Putin?

So why did you not vote him out when you still could?

The only chance was in 2000, but people were tired of inflation, the civil war in Chechnya, and an ill and drunk President Yeltsin, and they wanted someone "strong enough" to fix the country and show the world that "Mother Russia is great again."

All the media were working to promote him as a Strong Leader because Yeltsin's "Family," together with the most powerful oligarchs, thought they could control him because he was corrupt as fuck (he even helped Russian/Israeli gangsters transfer cocaine for the Cali Cartel via Saint Petersburg to Belgium) and completely loyal to his former master Sobchak (Saint Petersburg's mayor). He was presenting himself as a liberal friend of the West and a Make Russia Great Again populist at the same time.

But they failed because Putin's team, full of former KGB operatives, was even more cynical and brutal than they were. They took control over most of the non-state media, the court system, and oil and gas companies.

They incorporated former Chechen fighters into their system, often using them as hitmen to get rid of political opponents in exchange for large amounts of state support to Chechnya.

After that, it was too late. Even in 2000, in some regions, elections were completely faked (where local governors had enough power to do this). After 2000, all elections were just an "electoral show," with almost zero chance to elect anyone else.

Another problem is that we have really terrible problem that about 30% of our population (mostly men over 50 and women over 40) are dreaming about a new Hitler/Stalin-type creature in the Kremlin. Most of those women are divorced with children, dreaming about some "Strong Man who will care about them" (and not drink vodka regularly like their former husbands did), and men dreaming about military victories over the "weak West" and getting some "fairness" because they are poor, corruption is all around, and they have zero chance to achieve anything in their remaining life.

In such a situation, it's very difficult to get rid of a crazy dictator who thinks that God sent him to our planet to create a New Soviet Union with the Orthodox Church and the KGB ruling the country.



Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry,

On Sunday July 28 2024 18:54, you wrote to me:

So why did you not vote him out when you still could?

The only chance was in 2000,

I don't think that really was the last and only chance. However...

but people were tired of inflation, the civil war in Chechnya, and an
ill and drunk President Yeltsin, and they wanted someone "strong
enough" to fix the country and show the world that "Mother Russia is
great again."

So the people want a "strong leader" to solve the problems. And that is what they get. Or so they think. What they don't realise is that what they get is a leader that will use the power given to /stay/ in power. For as long as possible. At all cost...

Putin isn't the only one. There is a world wide trend for elected leaders to turn into autocrats. Xing Pi, Erdogan, Bouterse, Netanyahu, Orban, Maduro. And maybe Trump and Wilders...

I just hope that in ten or twenty years the samen question will not be asked to the people of The Netherlands... :(


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Monday July 29 2024 12:15, you wrote to me:

So why did you not vote him out when you still could?

The only chance was in 2000,

I don't think that really was the last and only chance. However...

It doesn't matter how people vote. If you have total control over the voting system, you can make up any numbers.
40% can become 70% with no problem.

But when you have total control over the media, the courts, the police, and the secret service, it's very difficult to even make people believe that they can change anything.

but people were tired of inflation, the civil war in Chechnya,
and an ill and drunk President Yeltsin, and they wanted someone
"strong enough" to fix the country and show the world that
"Mother Russia is great again."

So the people want a "strong leader" to solve the problems. And that
is what they get. Or so they think. What they don't realise is that
what they get is a leader that will use the power given to /stay/ in power. For as long as possible. At all cost...

It wasn't something we were taught in Soviet schools... The main idea was that you have to trust someone who is in power at the moment - your teacher, your boss, your party or state leader.
Orthodox church always says - do not oppose your state leader, it's a sin.

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

Putin isn't the only one. There is a world wide trend for elected
leaders to turn into autocrats. Xing Pi, Erdogan, Bouterse, Netanyahu, Orban, Maduro. And maybe Trump and Wilders...

People like simple answers to difficult questions and strong populist leader is a very simple answer.

I just hope that in ten or twenty years the samen question will not be asked to the people of The Netherlands... :(

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do things. The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new one :)

I am just curious why it's always something from Germany? Carl Marx was German, the current Putin's regime is very much based on German ideas from 193Xs..

Many next ideas will be from democratic Germany :)


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry,

On Monday July 29 2024 11:17, you wrote to me:

The only chance was in 2000,

I don't think that really was the last and only chance.
However...

It doesn't matter how people vote. If you have total control over the voting system, you can make up any numbers. 40% can become 70% with no problem.

Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the cold war. Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone now, but in the early days of Putin he still could be voted out.

But when you have total control over the media, the courts, the
police, and the secret service, it's very difficult to even make
people believe that they can change anything.

It was not always like that...

to /stay/ in power. For as long as possible. At all cost...

It wasn't something we were taught in Soviet schools... The main idea
was that you have to trust someone who is in power at the moment -
your teacher, your boss, your party or state leader. Orthodox church always says - do not oppose your state leader, it's a sin.

And who told you to trust the leaders of the Ortthodox church? Your parents?

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

Putin isn't the only one. There is a world wide trend for elected
leaders to turn into autocrats. Xing Pi, Erdogan, Bouterse,
Netanyahu, Orban, Maduro. And maybe Trump and Wilders...

People like simple answers to difficult questions and strong populist leader is a very simple answer.

Bottom line: "the people" are too naive for democracy. :(

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do things.
The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new one :)

Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much different from the rest of Europe.

I am just curious why it's always something from Germany? Carl Marx
was German, the current Putin's regime is very much based on German
ideas from 193Xs..

Trotsky was not German...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Monday July 29 2024 16:28, you wrote to me:

It doesn't matter how people vote. If you have total control over
the voting system, you can make up any numbers. 40% can become
70% with no problem.

Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the cold
war. Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone now, but in

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long before Putin.

However, the country was ill-prepared for such a significant shift. We lacked people with good economic education and as a result, the attempt to transition from socialism to a system akin to that of the Netherlands failed. Many of those experts in government saw the transformation as an opportunity for personal gain, and the Soviet Nomenklatura maintained their hold on power.

An even greater issue was the lack of "grassroots collaboration". Under Soviet rule, gatherings of more than three people were viewed with suspicion (police had instructions to check ANY people gathering), leaving us with little to no experience in municipal self-governance.

But when you have total control over the media, the courts, the
police, and the secret service, it's very difficult to even make
people believe that they can change anything.

It was not always like that...

In the 90s, I was too busy working to get involved in politics. I started working at the age of 13 because my parents couldn't afford to buy me a modem or pay for phone calls, which were quite expensive and charged by the minute.

I've started to go the protests only in 2006, but it was too late.

And who told you to trust the leaders of the Ortthodox church? Your parents?

People once trusted the Communist Party, but with its collapse they needed someone new to believe in. The Orthodox Church attempted to fill that void.

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many of my friends still talk about democracy as something from the Fidonet era! (I'm not joking).

Before Fidonet, they had no experience with real elections, or providing the infrastructure for elections or removing an elected person from "office".

People like simple answers to difficult questions and strong
populist leader is a very simple answer.

Bottom line: "the people" are too naive for democracy. :(

Not all people and not always :)

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do
things. The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new
one :)

Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much different
from the rest of Europe.

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in place. The culture may have been the same but it was a culture of the elite. The average Russian lived like an African slave with no rights, in his own country.

I am just curious why it's always something from Germany? Carl
Marx was German, the current Putin's regime is very much based on
German ideas from 193Xs..

Trotsky was not German...

Interestingly, I now live in London (for the past 1.5 years, since the war started), and there's a pub here where Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin used to drink together. It's quite the spot for anyone who dreams of returning and transforming our country!

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Michiel,

The only chance was in 2000,

I don't think that really was the last and only chance.
However...

It doesn't matter how people vote. If you have total control over the
voting system, you can make up any numbers. 40% can become 70% with

MvdV> no

problem.

MvdV> Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the cold war.
MvdV> Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone now, but in the early
MvdV> days of Putin he still could be voted out.

Gorbachev dissolved the USSR, making it a thing of the past.
Putin yearns to bring it back.

But when you have total control over the media, the courts, the
police, and the secret service, it's very difficult to even make
people believe that they can change anything.

MvdV> It was not always like that...

My grandfather emigrated to the USA from Sicily. He was brought
here on a boat by my great grandfather. The dictator in Italy at
the time was the one before Il Duce. My great grandparents had
13 children. Made for a lot of trips across the ocean.

to /stay/ in power. For as long as possible. At all cost...

It wasn't something we were taught in Soviet schools... The main idea
was that you have to trust someone who is in power at the moment -
your teacher, your boss, your party or state leader. Orthodox church
always says - do not oppose your state leader, it's a sin.

MvdV> And who told you to trust the leaders of the Ortthodox church? Your parents?

What is your name? The name your parents chose to name you.
Whatever your beliefs, they are those taught to you by your
parents. We believe what others want us to believe, rather
than what we believe, because we do not want to know what
to believe.

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

MvdV> Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

Winston Churchill is alleged to have said democracy is the least
bad form of government. Although most people would say he was right,
the reality is far different.

The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.

With me in charge.

Putin isn't the only one. There is a world wide trend for elected
leaders to turn into autocrats. Xing Pi, Erdogan, Bouterse,
Netanyahu, Orban, Maduro. And maybe Trump and Wilders...

People like simple answers to difficult questions and strong populist
leader is a very simple answer.

MvdV> Bottom line: "the people" are too naive for democracy. :(

The Italian people needed Il Duce.
The German people needed der Fuhrer.
The American people need their Stable Genius.

That is how the world works.
One to lead, the rest to follow.

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do things.
The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new one :)

MvdV> Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much different from the
MvdV> rest of Europe.

Napoleon Bonaparte tried to make it part of his French Republic.
Adolf Hitler tried to make it part of his Third Reich.
Geert Wilders tried to make it a New Amsterdam ...

I am just curious why it's always something from Germany? Carl Marx
was German, the current Putin's regime is very much based on German
ideas from 193Xs..

MvdV> Trotsky was not German...

Neither was Lenin. Or Stalin. Or Kruschev. Your point?

For Life,
Lee

--
You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Dmitry,

On Tuesday July 30 2024 00:54, you wrote to me:

Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the
cold war. Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone
now, but in

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long before Putin.

Indeed, long before Putin. But it didn't have to go when the Sovjet Union was dissolved. If you had voted against Putin when you still could, Glasnost and Perestroyka might still be here.

However, the country was ill-prepared for such a significant shift.

No country is ever prepared well for such a shift. Yet other countries survived. France survived the revolution. The USA survived after they kicked the Brittish out and they survived a civil war. Italy survived the fall of the Roman Empire and The Netherlands survived when they declared independance from the Spanish Kingdom.

We lacked people with good economic education

I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and scientists. Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.

and as a result, the attempt to transition from socialism to a system
akin to that of the Netherlands failed. Many of those experts in government saw the transformation as an opportunity for personal gain,
and the Soviet Nomenklatura maintained their hold on power.

That a small elite sees a transition as an opportunity for personal gain happens everywhere. What do you think happened during the so called "Golden Age" in The Netherlands. BTW, during that "Golden Age" The Netherlands had very good relations with Russia.

[,, ]

It was not always like that...

In the 90s, I was too busy working to get involved in politics. I
started working at the age of 13 because my parents couldn't afford to
buy me a modem or pay for phone calls, which were quite expensive and charged by the minute.

When I was 13, I could not buy a modem because modems didn't exist in 1959. I already had a modem before Fidonet existed. I didn't buy it, I put it together myself. IIRC that was around 1978.

I've started to go the protests only in 2006, but it was too late.

This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the plural, the people who didn't vote against Putin when they still could.

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many of my friends still talk about democracy as something from the Fidonet era!
(I'm not joking).

Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a democracy... That explains a lot... ;-)

Before Fidonet, they had no experience with real elections, or
providing the infrastructure for elections or removing an elected
person from "office".

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the ultimate ruler..

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do
things. The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new
one :)

Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much
different from the rest of Europe.

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in place.
The culture may have been the same but it was a culture of the elite.
The average Russian lived like an African slave with no rights, in his
own country.

Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years ago.

[..]

Interestingly, I now live in London (for the past 1.5 years, since the
war started),

So you left the country in the hands of the Putin supporters...

and there's a pub here where Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin used to drink together.

"used to drink together" That sounds like all three were regulars there and met once a week or so. Nice story that if a wear a pub owner would also try to get around in order to lure customers.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello Michiel,

Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the
cold war. Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone
now, but in

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long
before Putin.

MvdV> Indeed, long before Putin. But it didn't have to go when the Sovjet Union
MvdV> was dissolved. If you had voted against Putin when you still could,
MvdV> Glasnost and Perestroyka might still be here.

There are several flaws in your analysis. Gorbachev's idea was to
spin off the republics that had been held together by the USSR. Then
rebuild what was left to be a dynamic state - with help from the USA.
Kind of a Marshall Plan for the USSR. With Eastern Europe as a gift.

The problem with that approach was Bush41 chose not to go along.

The USSR was dissolved, Yeltsen took over as president of Russia,
and Ukraine was a free and independent country. Nobody argued about
it, all was well. Even Putin agreed.

And now look where we are.

However, the country was ill-prepared for such a significant shift.

MvdV> No country is ever prepared well for such a shift. Yet other countries
MvdV> survived. France survived the revolution. The USA survived after they
MvdV> kicked the Brittish out and they survived a civil war. Italy survived the
MvdV> fall of the Roman Empire and The Netherlands survived when they declared
MvdV> independance from the Spanish Kingdom.

Had it not been for the Marshall Plan several countries in Europe
would not have survived. Had it not been for the Soviet counterpart,
many other countries in Europe would not have survived.

Face the facts. The USA built Western Europe. The USSR built
Eastern Europe. And who is building Asia? Will it be Japan? The
people of the Rising Sun are too old, and getting older. Will
it be China? Their population is also in decline, as not enough
babies are being born to keep up.

All of the countries in Europe have declining populations.
Within two or three decades, the majority of people in many
countries in Europe will have been born elsewhere.

We lacked people with good economic education

MvdV> I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and scientists.
MvdV> Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.

Russia's best and brightest have left for greener shores.
China knows better than to follow Russia's lead.
However, most countries in Europe have a problem they
have yet to solve - how to stop immigrants from swamping
their population.

and as a result, the attempt to transition from socialism to a system
akin to that of the Netherlands failed. Many of those experts in
government saw the transformation as an opportunity for personal gain,
and the Soviet Nomenklatura maintained their hold on power.

MvdV> That a small elite sees a transition as an opportunity for personal gain
MvdV> happens everywhere. What do you think happened during the so called "Golden
MvdV> Age" in The Netherlands. BTW, during that "Golden Age" The Netherlands had
MvdV> very good relations with Russia.

That was then. This is now. FDR and Stalin were friends. Even though
they had far different philosophies or ideologies, they were able to
get along and prosecute the war in the Atlantic and in the Pacific.

MvdV> [,, ]

It was not always like that...

In the 90s, I was too busy working to get involved in politics. I
started working at the age of 13 because my parents couldn't afford

MvdV> to

buy me a modem or pay for phone calls, which were quite expensive and
charged by the minute.

MvdV> When I was 13, I could not buy a modem because modems didn't exist in 1959.
MvdV> I already had a modem before Fidonet existed. I didn't buy it, I put it
MvdV> together myself. IIRC that was around 1978.

I still have my morse code key. but nothing left to hook it up to.

I've started to go the protests only in 2006, but it was too late.

MvdV> This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the plural, the
MvdV> people who didn't vote against Putin when they still could.

Yeltsen quit, but not before giving Putin the job of prime minister.
He later called it the biggest mistake of his life.

Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)

Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many of my
friends still talk about democracy as something from the Fidonet era!
(I'm not joking).

MvdV> Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a democracy...
MvdV> That explains a lot... ;-)

A benevolent dictatorship. For those who like me.
A malevolent dictatorship. For those who don't.

Before Fidonet, they had no experience with real elections, or
providing the infrastructure for elections or removing an elected
person from "office".

MvdV> Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the ultimate
MvdV> ruler..

Can there ever be a King? In the truest sense of the word?
A King must rule by decree, without question from anyone.
Otherwise that King is a fiction, as noted by Alice in her
depiction of the Red Queen.

Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do
things. The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new
one :)

Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much
different from the rest of Europe.

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in place.
The culture may have been the same but it was a culture of the elite.
The average Russian lived like an African slave with no rights, in

MvdV> his

own country.

MvdV> Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years ago.

Black Peter is still around at Christmas time.

MvdV> [..]

Interestingly, I now live in London (for the past 1.5 years, since

MvdV> the

war started),

MvdV> So you left the country in the hands of the Putin supporters...

As did many in Venezuela leaving their friends in the hands
of Madura supporters.

and there's a pub here where Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin used to drink
together.

MvdV> "used to drink together" That sounds like all three were regulars there and
MvdV> met once a week or so. Nice story that if a wear a pub owner would also try
MvdV> to get around in order to lure customers.

At least Germany had sense enough to deport Lenin back to Russia.

For Life,
Lee

--
Fox News Slogan - Rich people paying rich people
to tell middle class people to blame poor people.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello, Michiel!

Thursday August 01 2024 13:53, you wrote to me:

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was
long before Putin.

Indeed, long before Putin. But it didn't have to go when the Sovjet
Union was dissolved. If you had voted against Putin when you still
could, Glasnost and Perestroyka might still be here.

Just imagine your salary as an engineer at a nuclear power station is so low at the end of the month that it doesn't even cover your monthly public transport ticket. How much time would you spend worrying about democracy versus how you are going to feed your kids?

That was the reality for many Russians in the '90s. Democracy wasn't really a priority for them.

For my parents, Perestroika was about making our apartment a livable place (more than 12 C during the winter) and not having to stand in line for six hours just to get 1 kg of bananas.

However, the country was ill-prepared for such a significant
shift.

No country is ever prepared well for such a shift. Yet other countries survived. France survived the revolution. The USA survived after they kicked the Brittish out and they survived a civil war. Italy survived
the fall of the Roman Empire and The Netherlands survived when they declared independance from the Spanish Kingdom.

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when Nazi Germany occupied your country?
How many of your relatives died fighting Germany?

My great-granddad spent 4 years in Mauthausen. He've seen many people around but no one from Netherlands.

We lacked people with good economic education

I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and
scientists. Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.

We had the same problem with telecommunications. Not enought experts.

That a small elite sees a transition as an opportunity for personal
gain happens everywhere. What do you think happened during the so
called "Golden Age" in The Netherlands. BTW, during that "Golden Age"
The Netherlands had very good relations with Russia.

I bought a book about your "Golden Age" 10 minutes ago on Amazon. Sorry, I'm not educated enough to discuss this topic YET ;)

When I was 13, I could not buy a modem because modems didn't exist in 1959. I already had a modem before Fidonet existed. I didn't buy it, I
put it together myself. IIRC that was around 1978.

0 soviet people had modem in 1978. In 1986 I think that about 10 people had modem in ther appartment :)

This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the plural,
the people who didn't vote against Putin when they still could.

You probably just don't understand: it doesn't matter how people vote. What matters is who is counting their votes.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many
of my friends still talk about democracy as something from the
Fidonet era! (I'm not joking).

Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a democracy... That explains a lot... ;-)

Fidonet is a democracy :)

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the ultimate ruler..

It was like.. 200 year ago?

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in
place. The culture may have been the same but it was a culture of
the elite. The average Russian lived like an African slave with
no rights, in his own country.

Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years ago.

So people in Netherlands 200 years ago were slaves??

Interestingly, I now live in London (for the past 1.5 years,
since the war started),

So you left the country in the hands of the Putin supporters...

I spend 6 months in the UK and 3 months in Russia

and there's a pub here where Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin used to
drink together.

"used to drink together" That sounds like all three were regulars
there and met once a week or so. Nice story that if a wear a pub owner would also try to get around in order to lure customers.

http://www.tiredoflondontiredoflife.com/2010/02/drink-in-pub-where-lenin-and-st alin.html

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry!

30 Jul 24 00:54, Dmitry Protasoff wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long before
Putin.

Ah, well, yes and no. He was living and working for KGB in (East) Germany back then (1985-1990) and thus got first hand knowledge of what the Russian politics caused. In hindsight I'd say he learned back then what he would never like to see happening again.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 4:20PM up 45 days, 9:33, 7 users, load averages: 0.36, 0.35, 0.42

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: A true lie to believe (2:240/12)

Hello Dmitry,

On Saturday August 03 2024 01:37, you wrote to me:

Just imagine your salary as an engineer at a nuclear power station is
so low at the end of the month that it doesn't even cover your monthly public transport ticket. How much time would you spend worrying about democracy versus how you are going to feed your kids?

Not having the money to pay for food for kids is a very good reason to not have them in the first place. Nuclear power plant enigineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be interested in politics because it is politicians that have the power to actually do something about it. Nuclear power plant engineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

[..]

I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and
scientists. Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.

We had the same problem with telecommunications. Not enought experts.

But you had engineers for the nuclear power plants.

This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the
plural, the people who didn't vote against Putin when they still
could.

You probably just don't understand: it doesn't matter how people vote. What matters is who is counting their votes.

That is not how it was in the early days of Putin when he still could be voted out.

In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many
of my friends still talk about democracy as something from the
Fidonet era! (I'm not joking).

Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a
democracy... That explains a lot... ;-)

Fidonet is a democracy :)

Yeah right, keep on dreaming.

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the
ultimate ruler..

It was like.. 200 year ago?

Until about 150 years ago...

In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in
place. The culture may have been the same but it was a culture
of the elite. The average Russian lived like an African slave
with no rights, in his own country.

Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years
ago.

So people in Netherlands 200 years ago were slaves??

For all intents and purposen: yes. What I am saying is that just like in Russia, or in most other parts of Europe the culture was a culture of the elite. The average European lived like an African slave with no rights in his own country.

So don't give me all this bla bla in answer to the question why you did not vote Putin out when your still could. I think you have already given the answer: You were not interested in politics.

[..]

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives died
fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Tuesday August 06 2024 09:18, you wrote to me:

Not having the money to pay for food for kids is a very good reason to
not have them in the first place. Nuclear power plant enigineers

You can't put children back where they came from of your countrie's economy just collapsed.

should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

We call it "social darwinism". If you don't adapt quickly enough, your children are destined for extinction.
Looks like such ideas are popular in NL too? ;)

We had the same problem with telecommunications. Not enought
experts.

But you had engineers for the nuclear power plants.

Yes, but they were very bad at telecommunications and economic reforms.

You probably just don't understand: it doesn't matter how people
vote. What matters is who is counting their votes.

That is not how it was in the early days of Putin when he still could
be voted out.

It was like this even since 1996 in many places. In 2000 it became worse, in 2004 it was too late to fix.
The first thing Putin did was take control of the courts. How are you supposed to do anything if the courts are biased?

Start military uprising? Really?

Fidonet is a democracy :)

Yeah right, keep on dreaming.

May be in NL it was different :) I don't know.

Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the
ultimate ruler..

It was like.. 200 year ago?

Until about 150 years ago...

It was a long time ago, in a completely different era.

he king was unable to control most of the country. In the modern era, the Russian state has access to everything. all phone calls are recorded, all movements on the streets are tracked by facial recognition software, and all locations of people are analyzed and stored for future use (such as when the state needs to trace all your contacts from the last six months and locate those people).

The King had no such power.

So people in Netherlands 200 years ago were slaves??

For all intents and purposen: yes. What I am saying is that just like

But no. It was not possible to buy some Dutch guys and kill them for fun. They were not like slaves.
They were not completely free, but that's really a very much different situation.

And in Russia, 150 years ago, buying and selling people was a common practice. Not Africans, no. Russians.

So don't give me all this bla bla in answer to the question why you
did not vote Putin out when your still could. I think you have already given the answer: You were not interested in politics.

In 2000 I voted against Putin, but I'm still not sure how my vote was counted. You just don't understand: in many parts of Russia, we have never had even a single fair election since 1992. What you heard in the news was just wishful thinking by Western journalists who know very little about inner Russia.
If you have total control over the media and can get 90% "support" in some regions by manipulating the numbers, it's not that hard to win elections.

And as I mentioned before, Putin came up with the idea of external expansion many years after 2000. In 2000, he was seen as "strong but liberal" leader and later was even called a "friend of U.S. President Bush", not a Hitler or Ghaddafi.

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when
Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives
died fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in comparison to Belgium, for example:

5 days to surrender (Belgium resisted for 18, like 3 times more).
70% of jewish popluation killed (42% in Belgium)
25 000 volontiers in SS (15 000 in Belgium)

So the idea of fighting against opressing regime was not very popular in NL ;) We have the same problem in Russia now.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry,

On Wednesday August 07 2024 00:04, you wrote to me:

How many citizens of the Netherlands chose to die fighting when
Nazi Germany occupied your country? How many of your relatives
died fighting Germany?

You loose: Godwin's law.

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

That Mike Godwin alledgedly broke his own law does not invaildate it and it does not stop me from invoking it.

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin out when you still could" and all you come up with are diversions, fake arguments and subject chenges. It reminds me of the one who's name shall not be mentioned.
Regarding the answer to my question, all that I can deduct from your postings is that you were not intersted in politics...


EOT


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
* Origin: Michiel's laptop (2:280/464.5555)

Hello, Michiel!

Wednesday August 07 2024 11:19, you wrote to me:

Godwin himself broke this law when compared Putin to Hitler
couple of years ago.
https://x.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504244193660571651

That Mike Godwin alledgedly broke his own law does not invaildate it
and it does not stop me from invoking it.

The problem is that you just don't like the comparison.

But it's not my problem to explain why Dutch people were very much against dying for their own freedom, although some of them were happy to die killing some Russians.

Maybe we were the same, waiting for the British and Americans to save us :)

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin
out when you still could" and all you come up with are diversions,

It was never a monent when we could "vote out" Putin, realistically.

fake arguments and subject chenges. It reminds me of the one who's

For example you've probabably never heard term "Electroral Sultanate".
We call such regions of Russia where elections were never fair. Not a single time.
How could you win there if your votes are always counted "the right way"?

And good luck running any political campaigns when you have almost zero access to federal media.

name shall not be mentioned. Regarding the answer to my question, all
that I can deduct from your postings is that you were not intersted in politics...

I voted against him in 2000, but yes, I was too busy trying to earn some money (with a salary of about $200) to go to the protests at that time. Back then, in 5001 (Kuzbass) it was possible to go straight to jail even before 2000 for any participation in mass protests.

But later, starting from 2006, I was brave enough to protest in Moscow (5020) even when it was very likely to result in a long jail term, being tortured in prison, and possibly ending your life without any medical aid.

So no, I don't think your ideas about why we've failed are good enough. Maybe it's because I remember that every time the Dutch guys need to be brave, they have something else to do, like watching TV in Srebrenica while angry Serbs are out there ready to kick some asses. Even got some medals for that :)

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
* Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Michiel!

06 Aug 24 09:18, you wrote to Dmitry Protasoff:

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be interested
in politics because it is politicians that have the power to actually
do something about it. Nuclear power plant engineers should be smart enough to figure that out for themselves...

I read back some of your posts and I think they are detached from reality. I have experienced one party politics. I experienced totalitarian "choice". I experienced a police interrogation. And that was only Czechoslovakia and even the better times from this era. It is naive to think that there is a way out of this in a "democratic way".

Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20240209
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Hello Michiel,

[..]

But yes, the Netherlands did very badly in WWII, especially in
comparison to Belgium, for example:

MvdV> And now you are doing it again. I asked "why did you not vote Putin out when
MvdV> you still could" and all you come up with are diversions, fake arguments
MvdV> and subject chenges.

In all fairness to Dmitry, it should be kept in mind that Putin
gained power through legal means, same as Hitler. Once in office,
Hitler did exactly what he had promised to the German people.
He was Germany's savior, as well as the savior for all Germanic
peoples. In that sense, Putin is no different than Hitler.

And you know what? Germans loved him. Over 90% of the German
population were members of the Nazi Party (National Socialists).
They loved Hitler, and what he promised to give (or return) to
them. After all, it was their Germany.

Does that make the German people "evil"? I think not.

How can you blame Russians who thought Putin would give them
what they wanted? Yeltsin named Putin as Prime Minister, and
then quit as president. Then Putin was elected president,
through legal means. A new constitution was written ... Putin
got rid of lesser parties (made them inconsequential), and
had his own party firmly in place to ensure his own place.

Does that make the Russian people "evil"? I think not.

If Russia is to change, it will do so in the same way it always
has - through revolution. That is the way the Russian bear does
things. When in a skiffle with one of her cubs, she does so
underneath a rug. This is what is happening today with Ukraine.

At some point, smaller bears challenge papa bear and only one
bear emerges. The only question remaining is where will papa bear
go if there is no place else for him to go? We know what happened
to the Czar and his family ...

MvdV> It reminds me of the one who's name shall not be mentioned.

Let me guess! Let me guess!

MvdV> Regarding the answer to my question, all that I can deduct from your
MvdV> postings is that you were not intersted in politics...

Politics is the art of interpersonal relationships.

That is how Hitler gained power, through legal means.
That is how Putin gained power, through legal means.
Not by making threats, but by giving people what they
want or most desire.

And what does the politician want in return? Not much.
Just a little love, and affection. And you know what that
means -

Once you give something, you cannot take it away.

For Life,
Lee

--
You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

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Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 08.08.2024 17:46

LL> That is how Hitler gained power, through legal means.
LL> That is how Putin gained power, through legal means.
LL> Not by making threats, but by giving people what they
LL> want or most desire.

If you compare Putin and Hitler you are really afraid, I see. ;-) And
now you are waiting how Putin will at any moment start conquering the
poor world. Be calm it is not correct. Remember - "It is all in your
head" (c) "Chicken running" cartoon. You scared yourselves, hypnotise yourselves and now you really believe in your wild fantasies, so much
that your new NATO allies Finns has started taking big twice often. War
in Ukraine has concrete reasons and Russia's claims has not appeared out
of nothing -- the West had just preferred to ignore them arrogantly for
8 years since 2014.

I don't defend this war, but it is absolutely clear for me that Putin is
not a single and first reason for what is happening in Ukraine now.
People who came to power in Kiev in 2014 had made nothing to prevent
violence and they provoked awful events also arrogantly thinking that
they have enough power to ignore Russia stance. There is no single side
to blame and it is clear. Who was better -- Zelensky or Putin when
staring this war -- it is not a simple question. As the question who is
more democratic one and which country is now more resemble a
concentration camp. ;-) They both share the guilt.

The Western military help to Ukraine is the same escalating thing as
Russia's help was to the Donbass rebels. You think exactly as Putin did
that a military help is the best way to stop military fighting and bring
peace to Donbass. You even escalate this war from the EU's fund of
peace. ;-) The result is the same, and in addition the conflict is
growing bigger and there is a danger of some accidents that can cause something dreadful.

The more weapon people get the more they want to fight until the enemy
is dead. Two countries are now fighting as two fighters who have their
nerves switched off -- i.e. they don't feel pain even if they see the
gushing blood.


PS:
2Protasov - I will not to dispute with you, I know you pretend that you
know all in this world and have an illusion that you can answer any
question. It is useless to talk with a person who divided the world in
black and white.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2024
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Karel,

Not having enough money to live is a very good reason to be MV>interested

in politics because it is politicians that have the MV>power to actually do
something about it. Nuclear power plant MV>engineers should be smart enough
to figure that out for MV>themselves...

I read back some of your posts and I think they are detached from reality.

In a nutshell, politics is the act of interpersonal relationships.
But when that relationship is nonexistent, there is nothing the other
party can do.

That is why my great grandfather left Sicily. The dictator at the
time (the one before Mussolini) did whatever he wanted, whenever he
wanted, without anybody having the ability to object. Of course, it
took him a while, with 13 kids (11 of whom survived childbirth) to
tow to the USA. And back then, the only transportation available
was by boat. Good thing he was a cobbler as he never drove a car.
Had to walk to New Orleans from New York. That is a lot of shoes.

I have experienced one party politics.

So have I. Here in Louisiana. We had our very own dictator.
Huey P. Long. Really nice guy. Wanted to make every man a king.
Too bad his doctor shot him dead before he had a chance to make
it a reality.

I experienced totalitarian "choice".

We voted for Huey P. Long and accepted his rule with open arms.
After his doctor killed him (over a woman) we elected his brother
Earl. Who was then committed to a mental institution. Good thing
his girlfriend (a stripper) reminded him he was still governor
and could do whatever he wanted. So he fired his doctor and got
out. What a guy. Running the governor's office from an insane
asylum. No modern dictator can top that.

I experienced a police interrogation.

I had that very same experience. Dyslexic cop gave me a ticket
for speeding. And had the court date wrong. An all points bulletin
was issued for having missed the court date. Fortunately, I found
a solution. I gave a small donation to a candidate for mayor. He
easily won the election. The first thing he did in office was
fire the cop. Problem solved.

And that was only Czechoslovakia and even the better times from this era.

Louisiana has the best politicians that money can buy.
Trust me. I know.

It is naive to think that there is a way out of this in a "democratic way".

Money talks. People listen.

For Life,
Lee

--
GOP thinks banning guns won't elminate guns.
GOP thinks banning abortion will elininate abortions.

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