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McAuliffe Elementary School
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Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
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Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello, Ward Dossche.
On 5/25/22 11:47 PM you wrote:

And there are idiots here that think arming teachers is the solution.

I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks that's a good idea has never fired a gun, or at least never fired a gun and tried to hit something.

You can't miss as an armed teacher. If you miss, you kill a student.

No one is 100% accurate, especially in the midst of chaos.



--
Mike
BBS: warensemble.com
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: South of Heaven - warensemble.com (1:154/30.1)

Mike,

And there are idiots here that think arming teachers is the solution.

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere else in the world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else ...

And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ... It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

What is it that makes a person tick off-beat enough to do something like this because it is the end of your life ... you either commit suicide, you are shot down or "it's life in prison with no parole" ... a grim outlook after "making a statement" ...

Years ago at my favorite scout camp we had a troop from Littleton CO with parents who lost a child ... everybody should talk to such parents one day ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Ward!

26 May 22 09:02, Ward Dossche wrote to Mike Miller:

What is it that makes a person tick off-beat enough to do something
like this because it is the end of your life ... you either commit suicide, you are shot down or "it's life in prison with no parole"
... a grim outlook after "making a statement" ...

What is it that makes the US society so superior in creating such persons?


Regards,
Gerrit

... 1:36PM up 64 days, 18:42, 8 users, load averages: 0.83, 0.64, 0.60

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Shock to the System (2:240/12)

Hello Ward!

26 May 22 09:02, Ward Dossche wrote to Mike Miller:

And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ... It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a factor of 3 or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With /way/ less misuse.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 1:42PM up 64 days, 18:48, 8 users, load averages: 0.54, 0.48, 0.52

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

Gerrit,

Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a factor of
3 or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With /way/
less misuse.

Correct point.

It's really not that difficult in Belgium to get such a weapon legally, the waiting time and background checks take longer, I think 6 weeks and maybe a few other requirements. When you have such a weapon police will come visit once in a while to check upon your weapon ... its maintenance ... how it is stored. But people don't have the urge to have it and don't bother.

Guns and gun ownership have become a part of America's society. Friend of mine in Montana has 12 (including black powder musket, thatone is fun), anotherone has 8 ...

Gun ownership is such a big business in the meantime that it's impossible to stop it ... there are hundreds of thousands of jobs involved, I'm not joking. Jobs that pay for food, pay for mortgages, school ... you cannot put 4-500.000 people out of a job and hurt the economy. These 4-500.000 people are voters too and they'll vote for anyone letting them keep their jobs ... and that is only human.

And then the ammo-business ... when you enter Cabella's and see the pallets and pallets of ammunition there, it would send Zelinski drooling. As an outsider, if you haven't seen it, you wouldn't believe it.

Someone I know there went into the military and joined the Marines. After several years he was discharged honorably and I asked why he joined that elite corps, his answer "Because I was promised I would be sent abroad and get involved in military action where I could legaly kill people. I wanted to know how it felt to terminate someone" ... That individual is a leading person in the Boy Scouts of America ....

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Ward Dossche wrote to Gerrit Kuehn <=-

Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a factor of 3 or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With /way/ less misuse.

Correct point.

It's really not that difficult in Belgium to get such a weapon
legally, the waiting time and background checks take longer, I
think 6 weeks and maybe a few other requirements. When you have
such a weapon police will come visit once in a while to check
upon your weapon ... its maintenance ... how it is stored. But
people don't have the urge to have it and don't bother.

Interesting. Americans would not tolerate the "police coming to visit"
and check on things. None of their business.

Guns and gun ownership have become a part of America's society.

I would suggest that they have *always* been a part of our society.

Friend of mine in Montana has 12 (including black powder musket,
thatone is fun), anotherone has 8 ...

Pretty low count for a Montana-ian. I know many people (and myself) who
have many more than that.

Gun ownership is such a big business in the meantime that it's
impossible to stop it ... there are hundreds of thousands of jobs involved, I'm not joking. Jobs that pay for food, pay for
mortgages, school ... you cannot put 4-500.000 people out of a
job and hurt the economy. These 4-500.000 people are voters too
and they'll vote for anyone letting them keep their jobs ... and
that is only human.

All true, and good points.

And then the ammo-business ... when you enter Cabella's and see
the pallets and pallets of ammunition there, it would send
Zelinski drooling. As an outsider, if you haven't seen it, you
wouldn't believe it.

Things have been a little scarce in this regard for 2-3 years now.
Getting better though.

Someone I know there went into the military and joined the
Marines. After several years he was discharged honorably and I
asked why he joined that elite corps, his answer "Because I was
promised I would be sent abroad and get involved in military
action where I could legaly kill people. I wanted to know how it
felt to terminate someone" ... That individual is a leading
person in the Boy Scouts of America ....

That's..... pretty strange.



... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Hello, Ward Dossche.
On 5/26/22 9:02 AM you wrote:

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school
shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere
else in the world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else
... And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ...
It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet
the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so
why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

"gun culture".

I own guns. I enjoy shooting them at the range. My friends own guns, and also enjoy going to the range and putting holes in paper targets.

An afternoon at the range with friends is a good time.

Thst said, not a single one of us thinks arming teachers is a solution to protecting children. Some of my group of friends were in the military, and none of us are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. Each one of those misses is a dead child in an active school shooter situation.

Smoke, chaos, yelling, screaming, running children, shaking hands from adrenaline..

Armed teachers are a horrible idea.


I'm not sure banning "assault weapons" is the solution either, though. The culture has to change. Many people identify with gun ownership and gun culture incredibly strongly here.

There are too many people in the USA that think guns are a status symbol, and that they should be used to settle disputes. Not to mention, school shooters get their names plastered all over the news, all over the country, and if they do enough damage, all over the world. The media digs into their history, their background, their family, all because everyone wants to know "why". 3 days ago hardly anyone knew who that chucklefuck in Uvalde was, or even that Uvalde, TX existed. Today it's all over and you can't escape it.

What is it that makes a person tick off-beat enough to do
something like this because it is the end of your life ... you
either commit suicide, you are shot down or "it's life in prison
with no parole" ... a grim outlook after "making a statement" ...

--
Mike
BBS: warensemble.com
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: South of Heaven - warensemble.com (1:154/30.1)

Mike Miller wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

And there are idiots here that think arming teachers is the solution.

I'm not sure anyone saying that actually believes it, more likely
they've sold their soul to the NRA in exchange for campaign
donations.

I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks that's a good idea has never fired a gun, or at least never fired a gun and tried to hit something.

You can't miss as an armed teacher. If you miss, you kill a student.

So true.




... Discover your formulas and abandon them
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Ward Dossche wrote to Mike Miller <=-

Mike,

And there are idiots here that think arming teachers is the solution.

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere else in the
world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else ...

Ignore mental health care for all ages, create unprecedented social
stress by addicting kids to social networks intended to manipulate
people's behaviours for revenues, create echo chambers where opinions
are magnified, and create a two-party political system bent on
preserving power and status quo rather than serving the people.
Campaign finance is a wreck, influenced courts have inferred the same
free speech rights to corporations as they have inferred to people,
meaning that lobbyists can funnel campaign finance funds to
politicians to sway laws like gun laws in favor of the gun lobby.

But, Thoughts and Prayers, obviously.

And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ... It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

What is it that makes a person tick off-beat enough to do something
like this because it is the end of your life ... you either commit suicide, you are shot down or "it's life in prison with no parole" ...
a grim outlook after "making a statement" ...

Years ago at my favorite scout camp we had a troop from Littleton CO
with parents who lost a child ... everybody should talk to such parents one day ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

... Discover your formulas and abandon them
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Mike Miller wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school
shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere
else in the world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else
... And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ...
It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet
the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so
why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health issues.

"gun culture".

I own guns. I enjoy shooting them at the range. My friends own
guns, and also enjoy going to the range and putting holes in
paper targets.

An afternoon at the range with friends is a good time.

100% agree with the above.

Thst said, not a single one of us thinks arming teachers is a
solution to protecting children. Some of my group of friends
were in the military, and none of us are perfectly accurate 100%
of the time. Each one of those misses is a dead child in an
active school shooter situation.

Disagree here, at least partially. I'm not sure either way on the
wisdom of arming teachers. But I disagree that a miss by a teacher is a
dead child every time. Let's take this week's shooting as an example. Reportedly the shooter "barricaded" himself in a classroom, and then
killed everybody in the room, including two adult women (teachers).
While the asshole was barricading the door, if one of those women had
had a gun, they could have stopped him right there. No kids behind him.
Or even if a shooter was banging/breaking in a locked door, the teacher
could take up a position and as soon as the asshole enters the (broken
down) door, the teacher takes him out. No kids in the way. Another
example would be if the asshole is walking down a hallway, perhaps
enroute to another classroom after things had slowed down a little, an
adult could shoot him in the (probably) empty hallway. No kids around.

Bottom line is that there *ARE* chances to kill the asshole without endangering any kids.

Smoke, chaos, yelling, screaming, running children, shaking hands
from adrenaline..

Armed teachers are a horrible idea.

I'd say "not always" a horrible idea.

I'm not sure banning "assault weapons" is the solution either,
though. The culture has to change. Many people identify with gun ownership and gun culture incredibly strongly here.

Banning "assault weapons" will have ZERO effect on anything.


... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Hello Gerrit,

What is it that makes a person tick off-beat enough to do something
like this because it is the end of your life ... you either commit
suicide, you are shot down or "it's life in prison with no parole"
... a grim outlook after "making a statement" ...

What is it that makes the US society so superior in creating such persons?

We have more prisons. And also superior inmates.

All protected by Superman.

The only illegal alien never locked up or deported.

--Lee

--
It's not for women.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Gerrit,

And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ... It's
relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet the
overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so why do
Americans need such lethal weapons?

Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a factor of 3
or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With /way/ less misuse.

The US owns 42% of all the world's guns.
The US population is 4.5% of the world's total population.

Your numbers do not add up.

--Lee

--
In solidarity - RIP George Floyd - Black Lives Matter

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Mike,

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school
shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere
else in the world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else
... And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ...
It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet
the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so
why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

"gun culture".

Only rich folks could afford to own guns in the late 17th century.
And those guns were single shot, and had to be reloaded by hand.
Everyday people had to rely on knives, with some folks fortunate
enough to have a sword.

I own guns. I enjoy shooting them at the range. My friends own guns, and also enjoy going to the range and putting holes in paper targets.

The US owns 42% of the world's guns, but has only 4.5% of the world's population. As such, we can easily take on Russia, China, and virtually
the entire world if a shooting war takes place.

An afternoon at the range with friends is a good time.

Of course it is. And when one gets tired of shooting at paper
targets, or cans or bottles, one can move on to live targets.
Some folks never bother with target practice, as many of these
weapons have no learning curve to speak of ...

Thst said, not a single one of us thinks arming teachers is a solution to protecting children. Some of my group of friends were in the military, and
none of us are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. Each one of those misses is a dead child in an active school shooter situation.

"Is our children learning?" ~GWB, speaking to parents in Texas

Smoke, chaos, yelling, screaming, running children, shaking hands from adrenaline..

Armed teachers are a horrible idea.

That is why the state of Lousiana passed legislation to arm students.
Teachers were relieved when the governor vetoed it.

I'm not sure banning "assault weapons" is the solution either, though.

The rest of the world does not have a problem with that. So why
would you, or anybody else, want to continue to allow such madness
to continue?

The culture has to change.

According to every poll taken, the vast majority of the American
people want more gun control legislation, especially in regards to
banning assault weapons (such as the AR-15 used by the shooter in
the Texas elementary school massacre). And yet, 50 Republican US
Senators (+1 Democrat from Arizona) are blocking any and all
attempts to pass any kind of gun control legislation from being
passed.

The NRA (and gun manufacturers) own those MAGA politicians.

You say, or suggest, the culture has to change? What is needed
is to find ways to get rid of politicians who have been bought and
are owned by such special interest groups.

Many people identify with gun ownership and gun culture incredibly strongly
here.

The vast majority of Americans want gun control legislation to be
passed so that these atrocities will no longer happen.

There are too many people in the USA that think guns are a status symbol, and that they should be used to settle disputes.

A very vocal minority does not mean a vast majority.

Not to mention, school shooters get their names plastered all over the news,
all over the country, and if they do enough damage, all over the world.

Mass shootings (4 people or more per event) are a daily event in the
US. How many such mass shootings take place in Japan? Or Germany? Or
virtually anyplace else in the world?

The media digs into their history, their background, their family, all because everyone wants to know "why".

The real reason for the tragedy in Texas was due to easy access
to assault weapons (AR-15) and ammo. The excuse used by the governor
of Texas was that the 18-year-old kid was nuts, even though he had
no history of mental illness, and no criminal record.

3 days ago hardly anyone knew who that chucklefuck in Uvalde was, or even that Uvalde, TX existed. Today it's all over and you can't escape it.

Not to worry. It will all soon be forgotten. Just like Sandy Hook.
And then will come another small town's turn to become famous.

--Lee

--
There's no split in Cremo.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Dan,

What I find interesting is the question "Why do these school
shootings happen in the first place?" ... they happen near nowhere
else in the world ... or shootings at a mall ... or anywhere else
... And I don't think the 2nd Ammendment itself is the cause ...
It's relatively easy here to have something similar to an AR15 yet
the overwhelming majority of people here just don't care ... so
why do Americans need such lethal weapons?

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health issues.

The 18-year-old high school dropout had no history of mental illness,
and no criminal record. However, he did have easy access to guns - such
as that AR-15 he used to murder 2 adults and 19 children, as well as
injuring another 17 children.

The gun he used has only one purpose - to kill people. He bought
the gun legally, as well as the ammo.

And yet, after this Texas elementary school massacre, 50 Republican
US Senators (+ 1 Democrat from Arizona) have chosen to block any gun
control legislation attempts that might be made.

Banning "assault weapons" will have ZERO effect on anything.

It certainly did wonders for the rest of the world.

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Dan!

26 May 22 13:58, Dan Clough wrote to Mike Miller:

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health
issues.

So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less often?


Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:09PM up 65 days, 3:15, 8 users, load averages: 0.35, 0.40, 0.44

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

Hi, Gerrit Kuehn!
I read your message from 26.05.2022 23:09

DC>> The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental
DC>> health issues.
GK> So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more
GK> people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less
GK> often?

The man should be checked for participating in Satanic sects or social
media. If you want to get to your master service in easiest way -- do it
as it was done. Leaving the Christian church because of their hypocrisy
young people can face in other direction. There are hardly other
explanations left.

Bye, Gerrit!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Lee!

27 May 22 07:26, Lee Lofaso wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

The US owns 42% of all the world's guns.
The US population is 4.5% of the world's total population.

Your numbers do not add up.

You're comparing the wrong numbers. It's not US vs. the rest of the world, it's US vs. other countries. Switzerland, Canada or even Germany are not that far behind to explain the huge difference in misuse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_ country

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html





Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:50AM up 65 days, 15:56, 8 users, load averages: 0.45, 0.61, 0.52

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: So come and try to tell me (2:240/12)

Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dan Clough <=-

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health
issues.

So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more
people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less
often?

I think it's less treatment offered/available.



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Hello Dan!

27 May 22 07:06, Dan Clough wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health
issues.

So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more
people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less
often?

I think it's less treatment offered/available.

Hm.... thinking about it, this more or less always appears to be some kind of extended suicide. People doing this hardly can expect to get out alive, do they? And genereally, I'd say that most people who are out for suicide, have mental issues to treat.
Now, looking at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

There, the US rate does not really strike out (although the rate is higher than, e.g., in most European countries). This would speak against both theories: The US neither have more "candidates", nor are there more cases left untreated, at least not at the scale one might expect.

And looking here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Mental_illness

---
[...]
Criminologists Fox and DeLateur note that mental illness is only part of the issue, however, and mass shooters tend to externalize their problems, blaming others and are unlikely to seek psychiatric help, even if available.

[...]

McGinty and colleagues conducted a study to find out if people tended to associate the violence of school shootings with mental illness, at the expense of other factors such as the availability of high-capacity magazines.
[...]
Despite the fact that the article exposed the readers to both the mental illness of the shooter, and the fact that the shooter used high-capacity magazines, participants advocated more for gun restrictions on people with mental illness rather than bans on high-capacity magazines. This suggests that people believe mental illness is the culprit for school shootings in lieu of the accessibility of guns or other environmental factors.
[...]
---


This looks quite complex.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 3:46PM up 65 days, 20:52, 8 users, lo

Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Hello Dan!

27 May 22 07:06, Dan Clough wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health
issues.

So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more
people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less
often?

I think it's less treatment offered/available.

Hm.... thinking about it, this more or less always appears to be
some kind of extended suicide. People doing this hardly can
expect to get out alive, do they? And genereally, I'd say that
most people who are out for suicide, have mental issues to treat.
Now, looking at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

There, the US rate does not really strike out (although the rate
is higher than, e.g., in most European countries). This would
speak against both theories: The US neither have more
"candidates", nor are there more cases left untreated, at least
not at the scale one might expect.

And looking here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Mental_illness

---
[...]
Criminologists Fox and DeLateur note that mental illness is only
part of the issue, however, and mass shooters tend to externalize
their problems, blaming others and are unlikely to seek
psychiatric help, even if available.

[...]

McGinty and colleagues conducted a study to find out if people
tended to associate the violence of school shootings with mental
illness, at the expense of other factors such as the availability
of high-capacity magazines. [...]
Despite the fact that the article exposed the readers to both the
mental illness of the shooter, and the fact that the shooter used high-capacity magazines, participants advocated more for gun
restrictions on people with mental illness rather than bans on high-capacity magazines. This suggests that people believe mental
illness is the culprit for school shootings in lieu of the
accessibility of guns or other environmental factors. [...]
---

This looks quite complex.

It is indeed, very complex.

And yet, the American leftists (predictably) immediately call out for
more gun control laws, as they always do. They forget two things:

1. Criminals don't care much about laws, new or old.
2. One need look no further than cesspool known as Chicago - which has
some of the strictest "gun control" laws in the country, and yet has
literally DOZENS of shootings every week.

The left wing whackos here don't WANT to solve this problem, because it
gives them a convenient pulpit to preach from every time it happens.



... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Hello Gerrit,

The US owns 42% of all the world's guns.
The US population is 4.5% of the world's total population.

Your numbers do not add up.

You're comparing the wrong numbers.

I'm only talking about guns owned by civilians, not those
for military and/or law enforcement.

It's not US vs. the rest of the world, it's US vs. other countries.

| Civilian Possession Population (2017) # guns per 100 people
| of Firearms

USA 393,347,000 326,474,000 120.5
Japan 377,000 126,045,000 0.3
Germany 15,822,000 80,636,000 19.6
Switzerland 2,332,000 8,404,000 27.6
Canada 12,708,000 36,626,000 34.7

The US (civilians) owns 42% of all the world's guns.
Yet only has 4.5% of the world's population.

Switzerland, Canada or even Germany are not that far behind to explain the huge difference in misuse.

Say again? How many guns does the average person in Switzerland,
Canada, or Germany have? The numbers I cited were from Wikipedia.
Civilian possession of firearms. Not military or law enforcement.

Quite amazing how fast the former USSR fell to pieces with a mostly
unarmed population. Want to compare current numbers?

Civilians in Russia only posses some 17,620,000 firearms. Out of
a total population of 143,375,000 people. That is 12.3 guns/100 people.

So much for the NRA argument that a population armed to the teeth
keeps it free from tyranny.

USA (civilian firearms)
Registered - 1,073,743
Unregistered - 392,273,257

I wonder how many of them showed up at the NRA convention today
to hear Trump bloviate about how to Make America Safe Again ...

--Lee

--
Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Gerrit,

The school shootings happen because of (untreated) mental health
issues.

So, compared to other countries, do you think the US have more
people per capita with these issues? Or do they treat them less
often?

I think it's less treatment offered/available.

Hm.... thinking about it, this more or less always appears to be some kind of extended suicide.

Suicide by cop has been going on for decades. The problem in Texas
was that the local cops were too chickenshit to shoot back at the kid
who was shooting at them. Had to wait at least an hour for border
control to come and show them how to do it.

People doing this hardly can expect to get out alive, do they?

Timothy McVeigh almost got away with it, after blowing up a federal
building with 168 men, women and children inside. Was brought in for questioning, and then released, until some stranger recognized him
just in time.

And genereally, I'd say that most people who are out for suicide, have mental issues to treat.

Only if they do not succeed in their endeavor.

Now, looking at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

There, the US rate does not really strike out (although the rate is higher than, e.g., in most European countries). This would speak against both theories: The US neither have more "candidates", nor are there more cases left untreated, at least not at the scale one might expect.

Many suicides are not classified as suicides. They are reported
as accidental overdose, or some other excuse. There are also crimes,
where it is made to look as if someone has committed suicide.

And looking here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Mental_illness

Criminologists Fox and DeLateur note that mental illness is only part of the
issue, however, and mass shooters tend to externalize their problems, blaming others and are unlikely to seek psychiatric help, even if available.

The 18-year-old shooter in Texas had no history of mental illness.
Nor did he have any criminal record. How was anybody to know, or
suspect, he might be a nutcase? The kid was a high school dropout,
had no real job to speak of, appeared to be like most others his
own age ...

McGinty and colleagues conducted a study to find out if people tended to associate the violence of school shootings with mental illness, at the expense of other factors such as the availability of high-capacity magazines.

Easy access to such weapons, and ammo, could be a factor.
Which is why so many conservatives oppose any gun control
legislation. More gun control means fewer sales for gun
manufacturers. And it is those gun manufacturers who make
donations to their campaigns ...

Despite the fact that the article exposed the readers to both the mental illness of the shooter, and the fact that the shooter used high-capacity magazines, participants advocated more for gun restrictions on people with mental illness rather than bans on high-capacity magazines. This suggests that people believe mental illness is the culprit for school shootings in lieu of the accessibility of guns or other environmental factors.

A nutcase armed only with a pocketknife is far less dangerous
than a nutcase armed with two AR-15's with lots of ammo.

This looks quite complex.

Not at all. Other countries have tackled this problem, and have
had great results. Hardly any mass shootings anywhere else in the
world - except in the USA. Amazing, isn't it? The whole world has
figured out what the problem is, and done something about it.

But we don't care. We love our guns. And the only way you or anybody
else can take them away is from my dead fingers. Which is exactly what
was done with that 18-year-old shooter in Texas.

Ending the gunshow loopholes would be a start.
But that is not what the NRA wants. And that is
not what gun manufacturers want. People are not
important. Profits are.

--Lee

--
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Dan,

And yet, the American leftists (predictably) immediately call out for
more gun control laws, as they always do. They forget two things:

It is amazing there's a generation of Americans who reduces every issue to left/right ... the simple fact that the school shootings happen in the US so frequently and near nothing anywhere else in the world is a strong indication for a sociological cause ...

The left wing whackos here don't WANT to solve this problem, because it gives them a convenient pulpit to preach from every time it happens.

So why didn't the right wing whackos solved it 2017-2021?

Not because there are whackos not wanting to solve it, but just as unable to solve it.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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... Other countries have tackled this problem, and have
had great results. Hardly any mass shootings anywhere else in the
world - except in the USA. Amazing, isn't it? The whole world has
figured out what the problem is, and done something about it.

Not really ... it just didn't become a problem ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Hello Dan!

27 May 22 17:46, Dan Clough wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

This looks quite complex.

It is indeed, very complex.

I've seen some new reports over the last few days. Yesterday, a German TV team was interviewing people at the NRA congress. One person said (quoting from my memory):
"Where are you from? German TV? It's a cultural thing, you'll never understand it."
I'll try nevertheless...

1. Criminals don't care much about laws, new or old.

This is broadening the topic from school shooting to criminals in general. Nevertheless, this isn't just black and white. It has a lot to do with escalation and fear. I've never in my life felt the need for carrying a gun. Not when I've been attacked by someone (obviously under drugs) in the city. Not when someone illegally owning guns living two houses further up the street went crazy and shot the administrator of our district.

So my key questions would be: Is living in the US /that/ dangerous? Can one expect to lower risks when putting more guns into a society that is already in some kind of circus of fear?

PS: Blaming the political opponent is certainly quite convenient for each side. But having only two sides in the US system for many decades, either one is obiously unwilling or unable to solve this.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 9:58AM up 66 days, 15:04, 8 users, load averages: 0.30, 0.54, 0.60

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
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BY: Gerrit Kuehn(2:240/12)

Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a factor
of 3 or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With
/way/ less misuse.

Our nation was founded by the right to own stuff to defend yourself.


--- WWIV 5.5.1.3261
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Even if you take that as given: Many other countries are only a

factor

of 3 or something below the US in terms of weapons per capita. With MM>GK> /way/ less misuse.

Our nation was founded by the right to own stuff to defend yourself.

Your nation, where I've lived some 7-8 years, has a second ammendment which, as you know, verbally states:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people
to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That's the law and the law is the law.

However, perhaps it's now up to the Supreme Court to define what "a well regulated militia" is and give the above text legal meaning.

Does the ammendment give the right to own guns to all citizens, or only to those who are reasonably connected with "a well regulated militia"?

I think my thought has merits.

\%/@rd

BTW, if I were to live in Montana I definitely would own a gun ... going to the gun stand and fiting a few rounds is fun... and expensive ...

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Ward Dossche wrote to Matt Munson <=-

Your nation, where I've lived some 7-8 years, has a second
ammendment which, as you know, verbally states:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people
to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That's the law and the law is the law.

Correct.

However, perhaps it's now up to the Supreme Court to define what
"a well regulated militia" is and give the above text legal
meaning.

Why "now" is it up to the SC? What's changed to make that necessary
"now"? The above text already has plenty of legal meaning. As you
said, it's the law. Simple.

Does the ammendment give the right to own guns to all citizens,
or only to those who are reasonably connected with "a well
regulated militia"?

To all citizens, just as it says there above. The "right of the
people", which is all-encompassing. Again, simple.

I think my thought has merits.

Any left-wing gun control fanatic would completely agree with you.

BTW, if I were to live in Montana I definitely would own a gun
... going to the gun stand and fiting a few rounds is fun... and
expensive ...

It's not that expensive. I expended a few hundred rounds yesterday
myself. But not in Montana.



... Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Dan,

Why "now" is it up to the SC? What's changed to make that necessary
"now"? The above text already has plenty of legal meaning. As you
said, it's the law. Simple.

I'm not a legal scholar, so what would a "well regulated militia" be? Regulated "by whom"? Regulated means there are rules but these were never defined. The Supreme Court would be the place to settle this ...

I think my thought has merits.

Any left-wing gun control fanatic would completely agree with you.

I wonder why any exchange of views must immediately develop into "left wing", "right wing". "Biden is an idiot", "Trump is a jackass" ...

The simple fact is that despite some half-hearted attempts in the past, the US is ruled by 2 parties, it's either one or the otherone in power and neither have solved the shooting-problem ... neither have even attempted.

BTW, if I were to live in Montana I definitely would own a gun
... going to the gun stand and firing a few rounds is fun... and
expensive ...

It's not that expensive. I expended a few hundred rounds yesterday
myself. But not in Montana.

So what were you doing in Ukraine?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Ward Dossche wrote to Matt Munson <=-

However, perhaps it's now up to the Supreme Court to define what "a
well regulated militia" is and give the above text legal meaning.

We're all in trouble now.

("we" being US citizens, and a Supreme Court that ruled that corporations
have constitutional rights to free speech...)


... Overtly resist change
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Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why "now" is it up to the SC? What's changed to make that necessary "now"? The above text already has plenty of legal meaning. As you
said, it's the law. Simple.

I'm not a legal scholar, so what would a "well regulated militia"
be? Regulated "by whom"? Regulated means there are rules but
these were never defined.

Regulated by the *thousands* of gun-control laws already on the books.
The same ones that have been there for decades, plus many new ones in
recent times.

The Supreme Court would be the place to settle this ...

There's nothing to settle. It's already established law.

I think my thought has merits.

Any left-wing gun control fanatic would completely agree with you.

I wonder why any exchange of views must immediately develop into
"left wing", "right wing". "Biden is an idiot", "Trump is a
jackass" ...

Nothing developed into anything. Just my observation on your comment,
and it's factually solid. Not intended to be inflammatory.

The simple fact is that despite some half-hearted attempts in the
past, the US is ruled by 2 parties, it's either one or the
otherone in power and neither have solved the shooting-problem
... neither have even attempted.

Well, there have been attempts. The "assault-weapons" (haha!) ban of
1994 is one example. It expired in 2004 and was not renewed. There is
no real evidence that it had any effect on anything.

BTW, if I were to live in Montana I definitely would own a gun
... going to the gun stand and firing a few rounds is fun... and
expensive ...

It's not that expensive. I expended a few hundred rounds yesterday myself. But not in Montana.

So what were you doing in Ukraine?

Well, defending freedom and resisting tyranny, of course. ;-)


... Freedom isn't free.
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Hello Matt!

28 May 22 09:53, Matt Munson wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

Our nation was founded by the right to own stuff to defend yourself.

How can "the right" act as a founder?

Well, "stuff to defend yourself" may label anything from a biro to a thermonuclear weapon. Go figure!


Regards,
Gerrit

... 5:53PM up 71 days, 22:59, 8 users, load averages: 0.48, 0.47, 0.50

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

Hello Gerrit,

On Thursday June 02 2022 17:53, you wrote to Matt Munson:

Our nation was founded by the right to own stuff to defend
yourself.

How can "the right" act as a founder?

Well, "stuff to defend yourself" may label anything from a biro to a thermonuclear weapon. Go figure!

Plus of course that that "right" was mainly used to extinguish the original inhabitants and drove whoever remained into reservations...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Dan,

To all citizens, just as it says there above. The "right of the
people", which is all-encompassing. Again, simple.

Well, at the time of the creation of the USA and that consitution was produced, the glorified founding fathers never intended slaves to be free, they never intended women to be able to vote and you yourself even couldn't vote if you owned no property.

Those founding fathers were in their intentions all bypassed by reality and enlightened thinking.

So if they were wrong about the slaves, women voters and having to own property in order to be able to vote, perhaps they were wrong about the unrestricted right to bear arms as well.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Hello Dan!

26 May 22 13:58, you wrote to me:

Mike Miller wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

Thst said, not a single one of us thinks arming teachers is a
solution to protecting children. Some of my group of friends
were in the military, and none of us are perfectly accurate 100%
of the time. Each one of those misses is a dead child in an
active school shooter situation.

Disagree here, at least partially. I'm not sure either way on the
wisdom of arming teachers. But I disagree that a miss by a teacher is
a dead child every time. Let's take this week's shooting as an
example. Reportedly the shooter "barricaded" himself in a classroom,
and then killed everybody in the room, including two adult women (teachers). While the asshole was barricading the door, if one of
those women had had a gun, they could have stopped him right there.
No kids behind him. Or even if a shooter was banging/breaking in a
locked door, the teacher could take up a position and as soon as the asshole enters the (broken down) door, the teacher takes him out. No
kids in the way. Another example would be if the asshole is walking
down a hallway, perhaps enroute to another classroom after things had slowed down a little, an adult could shoot him in the (probably) empty hallway. No kids around.

Bottom line is that there *ARE* chances to kill the asshole without endangering any kids.

Smoke, chaos, yelling, screaming, running children, shaking hands
from adrenaline..

Armed teachers are a horrible idea.

I'd say "not always" a horrible idea.

The cons outweigh the pros. Some people are calling for having guns "secured in clasrooms".

In grade school I learned how to pick locks. putting guns in school is just going to put more guns into volatile childrens hands. keys can be misplaced. fingerprint sensors can be bypassed. codes can be hacked.

The best way I can think of, currently, to prevent more of these abhorrent situations is to keep guns out of the hands of people that want to perpetrate them. We certainly don't do that by putting more guns where they can potentially get at them.


Most of the country is for expanding background checks. longer waiting periods, and other "sensible" things that will limit access to firearms for people that would use them to do harm to others, but still allow those of us who are responsible to purchase them.

Look, if I have to deal with the minor inconvenience of having to wait a few weeks or so before I can buy my next gun in order to save a single life, I'm fine with that.




Mike


... You have no earthly idea how bizarre I truly am! - Goldust
=== GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: War Ensemble - warensemble.com - Appleton, WI (1:154/30)

Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

To all citizens, just as it says there above. The "right of the
people", which is all-encompassing. Again, simple.

Well, at the time of the creation of the USA and that consitution
was produced, the glorified founding fathers never intended
slaves to be free, they never intended women to be able to vote
and you yourself even couldn't vote if you owned no property.

Those founding fathers were in their intentions all bypassed by
reality and enlightened thinking.

So if they were wrong about the slaves, women voters and having
to own property in order to be able to vote, perhaps they were
wrong about the unrestricted right to bear arms as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Generally, a sentence containing "So if..." is a red flag that the
author is attempting to divert from the actual subject/topic. That
tactic is quite obvious and in your case above is a very weak attempt at "leading" an argument with hypothetical garbage.

FAIL.



... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Mike Miller wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Bottom line is that there *ARE* chances to kill the asshole without endangering any kids.

Smoke, chaos, yelling, screaming, running children, shaking hands
from adrenaline..

Armed teachers are a horrible idea.

I'd say "not always" a horrible idea.

The cons outweigh the pros. Some people are calling for having
guns "secured in clasrooms".

I don't think that would be a good idea either. If we are going to have
guns in a classroom, they should be carried by the teacher.

The best way I can think of, currently, to prevent more of these
abhorrent situations is to keep guns out of the hands of people
that want to perpetrate them. We certainly don't do that by
putting more guns where they can potentially get at them.

So how *DO* we do that? By outlawing their sale? Do you think an
asshole can't get it some other way? Criminals, by definition, don't
care about or follow laws.

Most of the country is for expanding background checks. longer
waiting periods, and other "sensible" things that will limit
access to firearms for people that would use them to do harm to
others, but still allow those of us who are responsible to
purchase them.

I am not greatly opposed to that. I'm not sure it will have much effect
on school shootings, though. A background check wouldn't have stopped
the Texas shooter. A waiting period is easy to get through. If they're determined to do a shooting crime, none of those will stop it.

Look, if I have to deal with the minor inconvenience of having to
wait a few weeks or so before I can buy my next gun in order to
save a single life, I'm fine with that.

Same here. The actual issue though, is that here in America, that isn't
the goal of the leftists. That's just a foot in the door to complete
control and elimination of constitutionally-guaranteed rights. They
won't be satisfied with the above, and won't stop there.


... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Dan,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Generally, a sentence containing "So if..." is a red flag that the
author is attempting to divert from the actual subject/topic. That
tactic is quite obvious and in your case above is a very weak attempt at "leading" an argument with hypothetical garbage.

No Russkies here please.

There are websites that can be used to prove the Earth is flat or that tomorrow the sun will not rise ...

The Founding Fathers did not want slaves to be free nor women to vote.

George Washington had slaves, James Madisson had slaves ... Neither of their wives could vote. No Googling around thatone ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Hello Dan!

02 Jun 22 16:19, Dan Clough wrote to Ward Dossche:

So if they were wrong about the slaves, women voters and having
to own property in order to be able to vote, perhaps they were
wrong about the unrestricted right to bear arms as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This would imply that the analogies Ward came up with were false. You still need to prove that. Just calling them "garbage" is not very convincing. Your basic claim was (as far as I understood it - please correct me if I'm wrong) that "constitutionally given rights and their interpretation must not be altered". However, there obviously are examples where this was done in the past. So why do you think this particular one is different and eternal?


Regards,
Gerrit

... 7:34AM up 72 days, 12:40, 8 users, load averages: 0.27, 0.40, 0.49

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Things I already know (2:240/12)

Hello Michiel,

Our nation was founded by the right to own stuff to defend
yourself.

How can "the right" act as a founder?

Well, "stuff to defend yourself" may label anything from a biro to a
thermonuclear weapon. Go figure!

MvdV> Plus of course that that "right" was mainly used to extinguish the original
MvdV> inhabitants and drove whoever remained into reservations...

That is emphatically NOT TRUE!

The US signed treaties with all those nations! Hundreds of treaties!
So please, do not give me any of that Dutch nonsense! Those Indigenous
people got exactly what they deserved!

"`We the people' has never meant `all the people.'"
~ Independent presidential candidate and Navajo Nation
member Mark Charles

There are 5.2 million American Indian and Alaska Native people
in the USA, and 573 federally recognized Indian nations. There are
also state-recognized nations, and Indigenous communities living
in diaspora.

The US has signed 370 treaties, from 1778 to 1871.

What the US needs to do:

HONOR THE TREATIES

Native Americans have agreed to abide by the "Supreme Law" of the US.

If we honor the Constitution, we have to honor the treaties.

Wouldn't you agree?

The US was founded on theft of Indigenous lands and lives and on
the theft of black labor and lives through slavery.

The least the US can (and should) do is live up to its own
ideals of itself and its legally binding promises, obligations,
and commitments.

The US has to be honorable ...

.... and where it hasn't been, it must work to rectify it.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

--Lee

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Change Is Cumming

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Hello Ward,

To all citizens, just as it says there above. The "right of the
people", which is all-encompassing. Again, simple.

Well, at the time of the creation of the USA and that consitution was produced, the glorified founding fathers never intended slaves to be free, they never intended women to be able to vote and you yourself even couldn't
vote if you owned no property.

The Framers of the Constitution (those who wrote the darned thing)
did not include any provision for allowing women to vote, abolishing
slavery, or even recognizing slaves (blacks) as people. Up until the
civil war, most of our early presidents owned slaves. And Abraham
Lincoln did nothing to end the practice.

White men of privilege wrote the US Constitution. They had their
own vested interests, and wanted to protect their own first and
foremost. None of them were about to give anything of what they
had won - the freedom to do as they pleased.

Those founding fathers were in their intentions all bypassed by reality and
enlightened thinking.

The Framers of the Constitution rejected the "enlightened thinking"
of King George (who claimed to rule by divine right).

This rejection is found in the first three words of the US
Constituiton - "We the people". That is where our rights are
derived from. According to those Framers of the Constitution.

"... in order to form a more perfect union."

None of them claimed it was perfect as they had written. Only
that it was a work in progress.

So if they were wrong about the slaves, women voters and having to own property in order to be able to vote, perhaps they were wrong about the unrestricted right to bear arms as well.

"Nobody's perfect." ~George Washington, founder of the USA

--Lee

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Work sets you free.

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Hello Gerrit,

So if they were wrong about the slaves, women voters and having
to own property in order to be able to vote, perhaps they were
wrong about the unrestricted right to bear arms as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This would imply that the analogies Ward came up with were false. You still
need to prove that. Just calling them "garbage" is not very convincing. Your basic claim was (as far as I understood it - please correct me if I'm wrong) that "constitutionally given rights and their interpretation must not be altered". However, there obviously are examples where this was done in the past. So why do you think this particular one is different and eternal?

Methinks he forgot the first three words of the US Constitution -

| WE THE PEOPLE

'Nuff said.

--Lee

--
There's no split in Cremo.

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