• Re: USB lock up - poo! Fo

    From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Thursday, February 24, 2022 14:33:00
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!

    > > > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    > > KM> You followin' me? :D
    > > Out of morbid curiosity!
    > KM> I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your
    > KM> money's worth. <g>
    > We talking human or animal?
    KM> Bugs. <g>
    Computer or insect?!

    Uh, I can't tell, they're squished flat. Should I have 3D printed 'em??

    > The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be
    > due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere
    > near the thermal cut-off point.
    KM> Which is generally 80C for older CPUs, 100C for more-modern CPUs.
    Still seems 'funny' to have a CPU running up to the boiling point of
    water! ...Remember the old job about using the CD tray as a cup holder?
    Too bad can't run the CPU heat out and use to keep our coffee/tea warm!

    LOL yeah... tho I knew someone who had a K6-2 era AMD and used it to
    heat their garage!

    Yup: that's the way my tower fan attached: line up Part I, then line up
    Part 2 by fiddling with the bracket to fit into the mounting holes of
    Part 1. ...Actually not too bad, though I found it easier to see what
    was supposed to be done from a YouTube video as opposed to the printed instructions.

    Some are easier than others. I have an old Zalman that I never did
    figure out how to mount (not that it was likely a good idea anyway,
    being very topheavy). But the complicated-looking tower with the
    complicated instructions just sat in place and fit instantly.

    Covering up hot stuff is generally a good idea, though if using that
    cooling fan to try to cool other stuff maybe not such a good idea. The shroud I had housing the dust buffalos apparently was there to help
    direct the hot air towards the rear panel.

    Actually, it was a barn. <g>

    KM> Yeah, and now two types of core, one for performance, one for
    KM> slow.

    Yes: took me a while to figure that one out: "12 core (8p, 4e)". OK,
    eight an' four iz twelve, but the 'p' and 'e' didn't have a meaning for
    a while. Did finally see spelt out or otherwise defined: performance
    and efficiency. ...Then there are the ones that have a sharing... Good Grief!!

    That when I fling up my hands and go "Fine, just so long as it's faster
    than what I had."

    KM> Yeah, mine get parts kicked downhill as available too. Then find
    KM> some job and take a long time to finally retire to the Closet. <g>

    I finally did some sorting out of Parts I'll Probably Never Use. An AGP video card went in that box! Not sure if even worth attempting to list
    on eBay. Some time back had randomly checked prices of stuff in that
    box - almost more bother than worth, plus how long have those listings
    been up?

    Older parts are in some demand for retro gaming, and AGP are ideal for
    the very desirable 440BX chipset. Given the state of things, I certainly wouldn't trash any that still work, and if someone does need one... they
    ain't makin' any more of 'em.

    And what don't work... the gold fingers are worth around $15/pound, last
    I looked.


    > The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an
    > upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really
    > speeds up otherwise slow computers!
    KM> Yeah, it does wonders for that. Six times the data flow.

    Definitely a faster boot; didn't notice any performance change as far as MythTV was concerned. The old/slow computers are pretty much designed

    That's because once the system is fast enough to decode the video, bus
    speed is the limiting factor -- BUT even old slow IDE more than suffices
    for the speed that data is read for video playback, at least til you get
    into many-GB files and very high definition. The average 4GB HD movie
    file is no problem.

    to be used as MythTV Frontends only, though have the capability of a
    full Ubuntu system. Not going to be writing letters in the Ironing
    Room. Might look up something on the Web. Watch a show while doing
    laundry? Sure!

    You have an Ironing Room??!!! that's even more retro than my Closet!

    (I own an iron. It has never been out of the box. I don't know where it is.)

    KM> Woah... used to have a couple of vintage fans like that, but got
    KM> lost in the Great Northward Migration. High power, noisy, but
    KM> dang could they move the air.
    Yup! Here now just used for pink noise while sleeping.

    You can download every sort of color-noise nowadays, and just run it
    through an MP3 player. Advantage being you can tune it for pitch and
    volume a lot easier than a real fan. Downside is it lacks the motor
    harmonics.

    I haven't either. More "bigger tends to be quieter". When purchasing
    is more "that's a decent price" along with brand, type of sleeve/bearing thing, and dB.

    Sleeve bearing: where's the owl? :)

    > KM> So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .
    > Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs).
    KM> Next time you see a good deal, let me know!
    Will do! ...Wanna share that 161 minimum order?! <inside joke if
    anyone else is reading through this>

    Sure! I can use a couple dozen. <g>

    > Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going
    > to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save
    > on shipping.
    KM> Yeah. I have some salvaged from power supplies, but would have to
    KM> rewire 'em.
    I've got some power supplies needing to have the replaced -- mostly the
    80 mm fan but maybe a 120. Generally the failed PSUs have also been
    smaller output power so almost better to replace the power supply with
    one of higher wattage.

    I've replaced PSU fans often enough, but there I don't bother with the
    wiring or plugs (they're often weird or hardwired), I just use a fan
    with a molex, run the wires out the back along with the other wires, and
    plug it into one of the loose power connectors. It looks like mobius
    PSU, but works fine.

    Reverse, tho, cannibalized PSU fans usually don't have the right plug
    for anything, or no plug at all, but no worries, if the PSU is dead I
    don't feel bad cutting off a molex and wiring it to the fan.

    > issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is
    KM> I've found the airflow thing is mostly a myth. They talk a good
    KM> line but when temperature is much lower with MY airflow than with
    KM> THEIR airflow, and I see that over and over... well, I stopped
    KM> worrying about it.

    Pretty much good enough for me! I can sort of visualize having a
    contained box could cause better air flow as 'force' the air to come in
    form this point and be direct out that point. OTOH also seems there

    That's the theory, but in practice I find it doesn't work for bleep.
    Same with the shrouds on some vidcards -- yeah, it directs the air
    around the heatsink, but it also prevents heat from escaping the area.
    The ones I've checked have all run cooler minus the shroud.

    could be a quiet pool of air at the bottom. One computer with a tall

    Which doesn't matter, because there's nothing at the bottom that cares
    about heat; in fact it's usually just empty space.

    tower case may or may not have had that problem: video card was at the bottom, PSU and fan at the top. I don't recall where the front panel
    venting was. Anyway, for some reason I started getting concerned about

    It's generally at the bottom, but usually is so small it's worthless. I
    recall one of our old ILinkers mentioned he'd stick a screwdriver in
    there and crank it bigger, and since it was hidden no one could see that
    the hole was now big enough to notice.

    But much better to take off the unusued slot covers, and any unused
    drive bay covers. I find that no matter how the cooling is set up,
    there's ALWAYS hot air coming out the resulting top vent.

    a potential lack of/reduction of air flow in the bottom, or at least for
    the video card and whatever other cards were down there. Had a fan with

    The video card should not be at the bottom anyway. It should be in the
    slot nearest the CPU, and on some PCIe boards that is the only slot
    that's full speed.

    Other cards generally don't get hot enough to be a problem. NVMes run relatively hot, and even tho mine are on adapter cards (one next to the vidcard, one in bottom slot, cuz that's where the 16x slots are) even if
    you stick your hand in there you can't feel any hot spot. Ambient air suffices, and I'd guess since they're not up against the mainboard, does
    more to cool 'em than would a heatsink.

    a broken mount, Velcroed it to the bottom of the case to blow up. (Was
    he kind of fan with intake from the side.)

    Yeah, I've attached fans however the hell like that. Wedgie has one
    hanging from one screw off to the side of the HD cage, cuz the HD needed
    extra cooling (MFM campstove) and that was the one spot where I could
    secure it with anything. Gremlin has one hanging off the back of the
    case with three screws, a rubber shim, and a twisty-tie, cuz that's
    where it fit.

    Gremlin has a very early ATX case, mainboard that was designed for AT
    but swings both ways, and who the hell designed this case anyway?? Some
    minor surgery with tin snips later, it was a perfect fit. Just don't
    look too close. :)

    KM> So I ditched their stupid shroud, replaced the thoroughly useless
    KM> fanless heatsink with a proper if generic heatsink-with-fan,
    KM> added an intake fan, and its CPU temperature dropped 40F degrees.
    KM> Yes, FORTY DEGREES.

    KM> And it never crashed again (at least not until the capacitors
    KM> failed).

    Take that designers! I'm sort of the opinion there are times when the college-degreed designers know more than I do, but I'm also of the
    opinion there are times when they're stuck because that's the way they learned it. Your fan substitution is on example. (And besides, someone
    has to invent or discover stuff -- may as well be me!)

    Yeah, all I could figure is that they never compared it to standard
    setups, only to Dell-with-NO-cooling setups. 250 degrees with no
    cooling, 170 degrees with our fancy cooling, fantastic progress!!
    ...standard cooling like every clone PC in the world, 130 degrees...


    KM> Same with leaving the side panels off. Then you don't need to
    KM> worry about evacuating the hot air; it leaves all by itself.
    KM> Same reason I like to have a top vent, to let it escape.

    Heat rises!

    Yep, in fact top vent makes for pretty good passive circulation all by
    itself. There's a pretty good warm breeze coming out of Moonbase. <g>

    KM> I'd leave the open side a fingerwidth away from the side of the
    KM> cabinet, to let more hot air escape.

    That's pretty much what I'm doing with "BE4" here (the 4th version of
    the MythTV Backend). Plus some of the spacing is because that's the
    width of the side panel cover I'm storing next to unit so it doesn't get lost.

    Sounds like standard procedure to me. <g>

    KM> Well, given it's where you can't stick your foot into it, I'd
    KM> just leave enough room for circulation and not worry about it.
    OK; probably was going to end up that way anyway.

    Poor Argo ran laying on a table for about a year before I got around to putting it IN a case at all!! I would like to have one of the workbench doohickeys like Phil's Computer Lab uses for his temporary builds; looks
    quite convenient. But when I looked, were expensive!


    KM> Bullet ran with both sides off for years; only reason they're on
    KM> now is cuz it's not running due to Rearranging Of Hardware.
    KM> Bullet's southbridge likes to run at 220F, so the less between it
    KM> and the open air, the better.

    I might figure a way to blow air across it. Attach an old CPU fan
    (~40mm -- whatever the sizing is - going by memory) to an L-bracket
    attached to the drive bay case or some place sturdy/convenient.

    Yeah, Bullet's side panel fan was hooked up and blowing across stuff,
    even tho the panel was not attached. "Why is there a washcloth over the
    top of that loose side panel?" To stop vibration where it leans against
    the desk.


    KM> Got a copper heatsink for that but so far have not quite figured
    KM> out how to make it fit... might need a different one.

    My fan idea might be easier than metalworking!

    Beat ya to it <g>
    þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com

    --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Friday, February 25, 2022 10:14:00

    Hi Ky!


    > > > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    > > KM> You followin' me? :D
    > > Out of morbid curiosity!
    > KM> I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your
    > KM> money's worth. <g>
    > We talking human or animal?
    KM> Bugs. <g>
    Computer or insect?!
    Uh, I can't tell, they're squished flat. Should I have 3D printed
    'em??

    Possibly: if insects when 3D printing could have saved for Halloween.
    If the computer kind then the 3D bug printing would not have come out correctly -- and maybe still use for Halloween: insects with giant
    heads. Or the Kardashian version: insects with giant bottoms!!


    > The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be
    > due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere
    > near the thermal cut-off point.
    KM> Which is generally 80C for older CPUs, 100C for more-modern CPUs. Still seems 'funny' to have a CPU running up to the boiling point of
    water! ...Remember the old job about using the CD tray as a cup holder?
    Too bad can't run the CPU heat out and use to keep our coffee/tea warm!
    LOL yeah... tho I knew someone who had a K6-2 era AMD and used it
    to heat their garage!

    Gaa! Nothing running that hot up here!



    Yup: that's the way my tower fan attached: line up Part I, then line up
    Part 2 by fiddling with the bracket to fit into the mounting holes of
    Part 1. ...Actually not too bad, though I found it easier to see what
    was supposed to be done from a YouTube video as opposed to the printed instructions.
    Some are easier than others. I have an old Zalman that I never
    did figure out how to mount (not that it was likely a good idea
    anyway, being very topheavy). But the complicated-looking tower
    with the complicated instructions just sat in place and fit
    instantly.

    That was a pleasant surprise!



    Covering up hot stuff is generally a good idea, though if using that
    cooling fan to try to cool other stuff maybe not such a good idea. The shroud I had housing the dust buffalos apparently was there to help
    direct the hot air towards the rear panel.
    Actually, it was a barn. <g>

    <Getting on hip waders>


    KM> Yeah, and now two types of core, one for performance, one for
    KM> slow.
    Yes: took me a while to figure that one out: "12 core (8p, 4e)". OK,
    eight an' four iz twelve, but the 'p' and 'e' didn't have a meaning for
    a while. Did finally see spelt out or otherwise defined: performance
    and efficiency. ...Then there are the ones that have a sharing... Good Grief!!
    That when I fling up my hands and go "Fine, just so long as it's
    faster than what I had."


    That's pretty my thought too: if I'm going to sepnd all this money and
    time to create the new system I want it to do it's thing noticeably
    faster. Or for something like a new video card be sharper/clearer/more detailed.


    KM> Yeah, mine get parts kicked downhill as available too. Then find
    KM> some job and take a long time to finally retire to the Closet. <g>

    I finally did some sorting out of Parts I'll Probably Never Use. An AGP video card went in that box! Not sure if even worth attempting to list
    on eBay. Some time back had randomly checked prices of stuff in that
    box - almost more bother than worth, plus how long have those listings
    been up?
    Older parts are in some demand for retro gaming, and AGP are
    ideal for the very desirable 440BX chipset. Given the state of
    things, I certainly wouldn't trash any that still work, and if
    someone does need one... they ain't makin' any more of 'em.

    Hmm: better recheck those boxes in the basement!



    > The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an
    > upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really
    > speeds up otherwise slow computers!
    KM> Yeah, it does wonders for that. Six times the data flow.
    Definitely a faster boot; didn't notice any performance change as far as MythTV was concerned. The old/slow computers are pretty much designed
    That's because once the system is fast enough to decode the
    video, bus speed is the limiting factor -- BUT even old slow IDE
    more than suffices for the speed that data is read for video
    playback, at least til you get into many-GB files and very high definition. The average 4GB HD movie file is no problem.

    Sort of on the same topic I found the Raspberry Pi 3 (or maybe it was a
    3B) was fine as a MythTV Frontend, so processing 1080p video. The
    problem was with how it was connected to the network: if WiFi highly
    jittered, if Ethernet, smooth.


    to be used as MythTV Frontends only, though have the capability of a
    full Ubuntu system. Not going to be writing letters in the Ironing
    Room. Might look up something on the Web. Watch a show while doing laundry? Sure!
    You have an Ironing Room??!!! that's even more retro than my
    Closet!

    Just wait unil you read this message and see several paragraphs up the
    Sitting Room!



    (I own an iron. It has never been out of the box. I don't know
    where it is.)

    The iron is in the box, silly!



    KM> Woah... used to have a couple of vintage fans like that, but got
    KM> lost in the Great Northward Migration. High power, noisy, but
    KM> dang could they move the air.
    Yup! Here now just used for pink noise while sleeping.
    You can download every sort of color-noise nowadays, and just run
    it through an MP3 player. Advantage being you can tune it for
    pitch and volume a lot easier than a real fan. Downside is it
    lacks the motor harmonics.

    <chuckle> I sort of forget about that. To me the speakers in most
    electronic devices are too tinny (gee, I wonder why!); I use wired ear
    buds just because have but mainly because I haven't used all that much
    so not worth the expense to go wireless. Here in the Computer Room the
    sound system is from the analog output of the computer, into a Teac amp, powering Jensen bookshelf speakers. Use the monitor speakers -
    <shuddder>. I do have a cheap USB speaker set I use mainly for testing;
    I suppose decent new ones would be OK.


    I haven't either. More "bigger tends to be quieter". When purchasing
    is more "that's a decent price" along with brand, type of sleeve/bearing thing, and dB.
    Sleeve bearing: where's the owl? :)

    Really.


    > KM> So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .
    > Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs).
    KM> Next time you see a good deal, let me know!
    Will do! ...Wanna share that 161 minimum order?! <inside joke if
    anyone else is reading through this>
    Sure! I can use a couple dozen. <g>

    Shodding your dogs too?!


    > Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going
    > to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save
    > on shipping.
    KM> Yeah. I have some salvaged from power supplies, but would have to
    KM> rewire 'em.
    I've got some power supplies needing to have the replaced -- mostly the
    80 mm fan but maybe a 120. Generally the failed PSUs have also been
    smaller output power so almost better to replace the power supply with
    one of higher wattage.
    I've replaced PSU fans often enough, but there I don't bother
    with the wiring or plugs (they're often weird or hardwired), I
    just use a fan with a molex, run the wires out the back along
    with the other wires, and plug it into one of the loose power
    connectors. It looks like mobius PSU, but works fine.

    Yes, LIS I have a PSU with a failed fan; attached one to the outside,
    plugged the new pan into the appropriate connector and it's happy. My previous main computer had a PSU fan fail. Did replace and upgrade the
    PSU but in the mean time hung a fan on the back panel to provide
    cooling. Ran the wires through where the side cover attaches. (Now
    know I probably could have left that cover off without problems.)


    Reverse, tho, cannibalized PSU fans usually don't have the right
    plug for anything, or no plug at all, but no worries, if the PSU
    is dead I don't feel bad cutting off a molex and wiring it to the
    fan.

    I've kept spare parts for years: disassembled a few dead TVs, etc., for
    the parts for my hobbyist electronics. Also 'back then' could build
    some of your own computer cards so I'd need the connections, etc.


    > issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is
    KM> I've found the airflow thing is mostly a myth. They talk a good
    KM> line but when temperature is much lower with MY airflow than with
    KM> THEIR airflow, and I see that over and over... well, I stopped
    KM> worrying about it.
    Pretty much good enough for me! I can sort of visualize having a
    contained box could cause better air flow as 'force' the air to come in
    form this point and be direct out that point. OTOH also seems there
    That's the theory, but in practice I find it doesn't work for
    bleep. Same with the shrouds on some vidcards -- yeah, it directs
    the air around the heatsink, but it also prevents heat from
    escaping the area. The ones I've checked have all run cooler
    minus the shroud.

    We have gooid news and we have bad news! To me it sort of makes sense
    to blow the air in the direction it should go (like towards the back
    panel), but then with the proper chassis fan it should go that way
    anyway. ...Vaguely recall having a computer with the shroud ending at
    the rear panel and so no chassis ventilation except that provided by the
    fan in the PSU. Pretty sure I added a chassis fan!


    could be a quiet pool of air at the bottom. One computer with a tall
    Which doesn't matter, because there's nothing at the bottom that
    cares about heat; in fact it's usually just empty space.

    I've had/got systems with video cards, NICs, modem cards (!), extra USB
    ports, etc., down there.


    tower case may or may not have had that problem: video card was at the bottom, PSU and fan at the top. I don't recall where the front panel venting was. Anyway, for some reason I started getting concerned about
    It's generally at the bottom, but usually is so small it's
    worthless. I recall one of our old ILinkers mentioned he'd stick
    a screwdriver in there and crank it bigger, and since it was
    hidden no one could see that the hole was now big enough to
    notice.

    What's that whistling? Oh, the air through that teeny hole!



    The video card should not be at the bottom anyway. It should be
    in the slot nearest the CPU, and on some PCIe boards that is the
    only slot that's full speed.

    Now you tell me!! Over the years some of my positioning was based on cable/port location -- get fingers in there to tighten/loosen (BNC [told
    you it goes back a while!!], coax connectors for tuner cards, etc.) And
    of course some was "the bottom slot's free: here's your new home!".


    Other cards generally don't get hot enough to be a problem. NVMes
    run relatively hot, and even tho mine are on adapter cards (one
    next to the vidcard, one in bottom slot, cuz that's where the 16x
    slots are) even if you stick your hand in there you can't feel
    any hot spot. Ambient air suffices, and I'd guess since they're
    not up against the mainboard, does more to cool 'em than would a
    heatsink.


    I've rigged up small fans just to be sure air is moving between/around daughter cards.


    a broken mount, Velcroed it to the bottom of the case to blow up. (Was
    he kind of fan with intake from the side.)
    Yeah, I've attached fans however the hell like that. Wedgie has
    one hanging from one screw off to the side of the HD cage, cuz
    the HD needed extra cooling (MFM campstove) and that was the one
    spot where I could secure it with anything. Gremlin has one
    hanging off the back of the case with three screws, a rubber
    shim, and a twisty-tie, cuz that's where it fit.

    <Laff> We won't win any of those best-looking awards! I had the fan for
    the 486DX2/66 semi-hanging, supported from further sliding by a little
    'table' I rigged up from an insulator, a right-angle bracket, and
    whatever hardware needed to it all in place. The heatsink assembly was
    held to the CPU with plastic clips and one broke (dried out, stress), so
    was just held on with thermal compound



    Gremlin has a very early ATX case, mainboard that was designed
    for AT but swings both ways, and who the hell designed this case
    anyway?? Some minor surgery with tin snips later, it was a
    perfect fit. Just don't look too close. :)

    Or get the hand too close ==> snag, rip, squirt!




    KM> So I ditched their stupid shroud, replaced the thoroughly useless
    KM> fanless heatsink with a proper if generic heatsink-with-fan,
    KM> added an intake fan, and its CPU temperature dropped 40F degrees.
    KM> Yes, FORTY DEGREES.
    KM> And it never crashed again (at least not until the capacitors
    KM> failed).
    Take that designers! I'm sort of the opinion there are times when the college-degreed designers know more than I do, but I'm also of the
    opinion there are times when they're stuck because that's the way they learned it. Your fan substitution is on example. (And besides, someone
    has to invent or discover stuff -- may as well be me!)
    Yeah, all I could figure is that they never compared it to
    standard setups, only to Dell-with-NO-cooling setups. 250 degrees
    with no cooling, 170 degrees with our fancy cooling, fantastic
    progress!!
    ...standard cooling like every clone PC in the world, 130
    degrees...

    Maybe they figure if the CPU eventually overheats it will throttle, the
    user will think "worn out, need a new one" ==> profit for the
    manufacturer!



    KM> Same with leaving the side panels off. Then you don't need to
    KM> worry about evacuating the hot air; it leaves all by itself.
    KM> Same reason I like to have a top vent, to let it escape.
    Heat rises!
    Yep, in fact top vent makes for pretty good passive circulation
    all by itself. There's a pretty good warm breeze coming out of
    Moonbase. <g>

    LIS a message or three ago this computer has a 120 mm fan sitting on
    top. There is another 120 mm fan inside, right next to it (the
    customary side-by-side mounting option). When building I did install
    the one fan -- as you said, heat rises. Don't recall what made me try
    the second fan but with it did notice the CPU temperature monitoring
    lowered. OK, next time inside permanently install the fan (right now
    powered via 12vDC adapter). With the Southbridge issue replacing the
    whole thing so no real need to install the outside fan until play with whatever this box becomes.



    KM> I'd leave the open side a fingerwidth away from the side of the
    KM> cabinet, to let more hot air escape.
    That's pretty much what I'm doing with "BE4" here (the 4th version of
    the MythTV Backend). Plus some of the spacing is because that's the
    width of the side panel cover I'm storing next to unit so it doesn't get lost.
    Sounds like standard procedure to me. <g>

    BC (Before COVID) I had done a bit of clean-up, getting rid of several under-powered computers. (Was considering donating them to a school's Computer Club or something.) Did find a side panel I had no idea what
    it went to!



    KM> Well, given it's where you can't stick your foot into it, I'd
    KM> just leave enough room for circulation and not worry about it.
    OK; probably was going to end up that way anyway.

    Poor Argo ran laying on a table for about a year before I got
    around to putting it IN a case at all!! I would like to have one
    of the workbench doohickeys like Phil's Computer Lab uses for his temporary builds; looks quite convenient. But when I looked, were expensive!

    Yup!! Sometimes would be nice to know if this card would work better, or
    is the PSU underpowered and that's causing (issue).....



    KM> Bullet ran with both sides off for years; only reason they're on
    KM> now is cuz it's not running due to Rearranging Of Hardware.
    KM> Bullet's southbridge likes to run at 220F, so the less between it
    KM> and the open air, the better.
    I might figure a way to blow air across it. Attach an old CPU fan
    (~40mm -- whatever the sizing is - going by memory) to an L-bracket
    attached to the drive bay case or some place sturdy/convenient.
    Yeah, Bullet's side panel fan was hooked up and blowing across
    stuff, even tho the panel was not attached. "Why is there a
    washcloth over the top of that loose side panel?" To stop
    vibration where it leans against the desk.

    I miss the steel cases! <Lifting> Ugh! No I don't!!



    KM> Got a copper heatsink for that but so far have not quite figured
    KM> out how to make it fit... might need a different one.
    My fan idea might be easier than metalworking!
    Beat ya to it <g>

    Why am I visualizing a blacksmith at the anvil?!



    ¯ BarryMartin3@ ®
    ¯ @MyMetronet.NET ®

    ... Computer once beat me at chess; it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:49:00
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!

    Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.

    You followin' me? :D


    > Now for the CPU. Looks like between an i5 12600K and i7 12700K (leaning
    KM> https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-12700K-vs-Inte

    Did check the links -- some new/better detailed information. Actually
    this one (truncated) I did find on my own. OK, with Goggle's help. <g>
    Did decide to go with the i5 12600K: didn't seem to be worth the extra
    money for a processor which seems to be faster only for stuff I don't or
    only rarely do. Gives me time to take a sip of my coffee/tea/water!

    Yeah, there's probably not much point in going for the highest-end for
    what our lot do. If you aren't crunching numbers or rendering video, or playing the latest games... anything from about a midrange i7 or higher
    range i5 (your choice) will have a lot of staying power.

    KM> Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
    KM> emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or

    Down here someplace there was a link regarding cooler considerations for
    the i7-12700K version. As the i5 and i7 are essentially identical
    except for the max heat might be good to pay attention! ...Decided on
    the Noctura NH-U12S -- the 140 mm version are expensive! (But cheaper
    than charcoaling the motherboard and CPU.) Single fan with the ability
    to add a second fan. Will monitor with pSensor and see if needed.

    <goes to look> Pricey... I doubt a second fan does anything but
    interfere with the first fan. I'm not convinced Noctua are that special,
    tho they did position themselves as having quieter fans. Which in this
    era of helicopter PCs is worth something.

    The coolers I've got in Silver and Fireball are HP surplus. Didn't like
    the look or price of what else was handy, these got good reviews from
    genuine IT types, so tried one. Idling under 25C?? Impressed, bought
    another. Still impressed. (And that with the fan turned down about
    halfway, that being where it starts being audible outside the case.
    Silver downspeeds it automagically, Fireball has a rheostat.)

    Um... this one: https://www.amazon.com/HP-160w-LGA2011-Heatsink-656332-001/dp/B00H2YRL18
    copper foot under the included thermal goo. Except mine were $25 off eBay.

    I need to get some more case fans. Down to dregs.

    Also need to find again the video on "Too Many Fans" -- found in one of
    the links and made a note to look at it later in my notes. Would make
    sense: need an airflow, and if too strong front-to-back might create a stagnant air pool at the top and bottom of the case because air can't
    flow into the main stream easily. Or causes whistles as the air is jet-streamed through! Also thinking too much forced air can pull air
    the wrong way through devices like the PSU.

    Fans-fans-and-more-fans have become a religion among the gaming and overclocking crowd. Yeah, I doubt most of 'em do much besides make noise
    and rearrange dust (and so many of the newer cases have crap ventilation regardless). I've found the PSU fans plus one intake fan is generally adequate, unless you're bent on burning up the CPU with games or other
    hard work. And then the case fans aren't the limiting factor; the CPU
    cooler is.

    Doesn't really matter which way air moves through the PSU, so long as
    more warm air leaves the case than stays in it. I do like to leave the
    top drive bay empty, if there's no top vent (Silver and Paladin have
    vents in the case top), as I've found that does more for letting out hot
    air than all the fans in China. Also like to leave some of the slot
    covers off, same reason -- passive airflow to move the main mass of hot
    air, while fans move it away from specific spots like the CPU heatsink.

    My personal favorite is a gag fan some fan mfgr made and sent to Gamer's
    Nexus -- it just fits the side of a standard case. The WHOLE side!!

    BTW that's a good YT channel to check for reviews. They're meticulous
    about testing and not tolerant of junk. Main thing is being gamer
    oriented, lot of detail you and I don't care about, but still good for comparisons and overviews.

    See also their recent expose of Newegg's RMA BS. (Two videos, watch in
    order.) Conclusion, which some of us already knew: never buy anything
    from Newegg that doesn't have a direct manufacturer warranty. Also,
    never buy anything fragile from Newegg.
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 08:50:00

    Hi Ky!

    Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    You followin' me? :D

    Out of morbid curiosity!


    > Now for the CPU. Looks like between an i5 12600K and i7 12700K (leaning
    KM> https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-12700K-vs-Inte
    Did check the links -- some new/better detailed information. Actually
    this one (truncated) I did find on my own. OK, with Goggle's help. <g>
    Did decide to go with the i5 12600K: didn't seem to be worth the extra
    money for a processor which seems to be faster only for stuff I don't or only rarely do. Gives me time to take a sip of my coffee/tea/water!
    Yeah, there's probably not much point in going for the
    highest-end for what our lot do. If you aren't crunching numbers
    or rendering video, or playing the latest games... anything from
    about a midrange i7 or higher range i5 (your choice) will have a
    lot of staying power.

    Right. Another factor I consider is the future: try to anticipate what
    I will need for several years down the road. Did get the i5-12600K.
    Did see the other options that were compatible but the comments kept
    pointing to the i5-12600K or the i7-12700K -- must be a reason.


    KM> Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
    KM> emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or
    Down here someplace there was a link regarding cooler considerations for
    the i7-12700K version. As the i5 and i7 are essentially identical
    except for the max heat might be good to pay attention! ...Decided on
    the Noctura NH-U12S -- the 140 mm version are expensive! (But cheaper
    than charcoaling the motherboard and CPU.) Single fan with the ability
    to add a second fan. Will monitor with pSensor and see if needed.
    <goes to look> Pricey... I doubt a second fan does anything but
    interfere with the first fan. I'm not convinced Noctua are that
    special, tho they did position themselves as having quieter fans.
    Which in this era of helicopter PCs is worth something.

    As for the cooling towers the only ones I have used are the CoolerMaster
    Hyper 212 EVO and the Cryorig H7 Plus. Using only one fan and seems to
    be fine. The other fan can always be used as a replacement elsewhere.

    The reason I went with the Noctura is they seemed to be the only ones I
    could find a LGA1700 mounting for among the three brands. Maybe not
    carried yet, though that doesn't seem right. Also where I was reading
    the Noctura seemed to be highly rated and pretty much the only brand mentioned. No, I wasn't anywhere near the Noctura forum!



    The coolers I've got in Silver and Fireball are HP surplus.
    Didn't like the look or price of what else was handy, these got
    good reviews from genuine IT types, so tried one. Idling under
    25C?? Impressed, bought another. Still impressed. (And that with

    That _is_ good! Here generally running in the low 90's øF (~33øC), but
    of course part of that 'hotter' might be the processor, plus I've
    noticed LibreOffice tends to warm things up. Closed/none is definately
    cooler than 6 or 8 open documents.

    the fan turned down about halfway, that being where it starts
    being audible outside the case. Silver downspeeds it
    automagically, Fireball has a rheostat.)

    Gee, you could have used a switch bank and made it look Dr.
    Frankenstein-y!


    Um... this one: https://www.amazon.com/HP-160w-LGA2011-Heatsink-656332-001/dp/B00H
    2YRL18
    copper foot under the included thermal goo. Except mine were $25
    off eBay.

    I do some comparison shopping, plus glance through the reviews for
    additional tidbits. (One review on my motherboard said to take a
    picture of the serial number which is on the side of a white port but no
    where else, not even on the box. He found that after he assembled and
    got it running! [My box seems to have a s/n but will take a picture
    anyway.])


    I need to get some more case fans. Down to dregs.

    Better that nothing but yes, buy before need and you might also be able
    to catch a sale.


    Also need to find again the video on "Too Many Fans" -- found in one of
    the links and made a note to look at it later in my notes. Would make sense: need an airflow, and if too strong front-to-back might create a stagnant air pool at the top and bottom of the case because air can't
    flow into the main stream easily. Or causes whistles as the air is jet-streamed through! Also thinking too much forced air can pull air
    the wrong way through devices like the PSU.
    Fans-fans-and-more-fans have become a religion among the gaming
    and overclocking crowd. Yeah, I doubt most of 'em do much besides
    make noise and rearrange dust (and so many of the newer cases
    have crap ventilation regardless). I've found the PSU fans plus
    one intake fan is generally adequate, unless you're bent on
    burning up the CPU with games or other hard work. And then the
    case fans aren't the limiting factor; the CPU cooler is.

    The current computer I'm on (the one with the SouthBridge issue) wants
    an additional fan. Not absolutely sure of the original number of fans
    because I don't feel like pulling the unit but pretty sure one in the
    rear panel, one for the PSU, and one at top (the latter two I'm sure of!
    <g>) Was running warm, even after the swap in of the CoolerMaster CPU
    unit, so rigged up power for a 120mm fan and laid on top -- temperature
    drop! Intention of course to mount to the inside where it belongs but
    with the SouthBridge issue and so eventual replacement of the
    motherboard haven't bothered.


    Doesn't really matter which way air moves through the PSU, so
    long as more warm air leaves the case than stays in it. I do like
    to leave the top drive bay empty, if there's no top vent (Silver
    and Paladin have vents in the case top), as I've found that does
    more for letting out hot air than all the fans in China. Also
    like to leave some of the slot covers off, same reason -- passive
    airflow to move the main mass of hot air, while fans move it away
    from specific spots like the CPU heatsink.

    That does make sense, though having some sort of filter might help keep
    dust out. OTOH sufficient airflow shouldn't give time for the dust to
    settle. I do have a few cases with front panel ventilation.


    My personal favorite is a gag fan some fan mfgr made and sent to
    Gamer's Nexus -- it just fits the side of a standard case. The
    WHOLE side!!

    <snortle> Who stuck the extra zero on the mm figure?!


    BTW that's a good YT channel to check for reviews. They're
    meticulous about testing and not tolerant of junk. Main thing is
    being gamer oriented, lot of detail you and I don't care about,
    but still good for comparisons and overviews.
    See also their recent expose of Newegg's RMA BS. (Two videos,
    watch in order.) Conclusion, which some of us already knew: never
    buy anything from Newegg that doesn't have a direct manufacturer
    warranty. Also, never buy anything fragile from Newegg.

    So far <knock on wood> I've not had problems with Newegg, but then I
    don't buy too much from them. Sort of along the same lines I remember semi-recently I was going to buy something at Amazon which was lsied as
    them plus several dealers/shops. Lowest price by ~$15 was from a dealer
    (also free shipping) but the reviews complained of shoddy (not just poor) packaging: broke open, etc. I don't need missing parts and other
    hassels so spent the few extra dollars.



    ¯ BarryMartin3@ ®
    ¯ @MyMetronet.NET ®

    ... At my age I still don't need glasses, I drink straight from the bottle.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Thursday, February 17, 2022 15:22:00
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!

    > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    KM> You followin' me? :D

    Out of morbid curiosity!

    I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your money's
    worth. <g>

    Right. Another factor I consider is the future: try to anticipate what
    I will need for several years down the road. Did get the i5-12600K.
    Did see the other options that were compatible but the comments kept
    pointing to the i5-12600K or the i7-12700K -- must be a reason.

    Considering it's about 10x faster that where you started, it'll be spectacular. <g>

    As for the cooling towers the only ones I have used are the CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO and the Cryorig H7 Plus. Using only one fan and seems to
    be fine. The other fan can always be used as a replacement elsewhere.

    The fanciest one I have is a generic tower cooler I got off eBay for
    about $15 (it's taller than normal and gets the heat exchange well away
    from the motherboard). Works great. Quad-core 3.2GHz idles around 30C.

    The reason I went with the Noctura is they seemed to be the only ones I
    could find a LGA1700 mounting for among the three brands. Maybe not

    That can be the constraint, yeah. If it don't fit, ain't worth nothin'.

    carried yet, though that doesn't seem right. Also where I was reading
    the Noctura seemed to be highly rated and pretty much the only brand mentioned. No, I wasn't anywhere near the Noctura forum!

    They seem to be reasonably good, tho pricey.

    KM> The coolers I've got in Silver and Fireball are HP surplus.
    KM> Didn't like the look or price of what else was handy, these got
    KM> good reviews from genuine IT types, so tried one. Idling under
    KM> 25C?? Impressed, bought another. Still impressed. (And that with

    That _is_ good! Here generally running in the low 90's øF (~33øC), but
    of course part of that 'hotter' might be the processor, plus I've
    noticed LibreOffice tends to warm things up. Closed/none is definately cooler than 6 or 8 open documents.

    Busy is definitely warmer. Modern CPUs self-throttle when not busy,
    often down to half or a third their max speed.


    KM> the fan turned down about halfway, that being where it starts
    KM> being audible outside the case. Silver downspeeds it
    KM> automagically, Fireball has a rheostat.)

    Gee, you could have used a switch bank and made it look Dr.
    Frankenstein-y!

    It's already a frankenputer... Silver's only parts that came together
    were the mainboard and CPU! Fireball didn't even have that, the board
    happened to fit a loose CPU and loose RAM, and off we went.

    I do some comparison shopping, plus glance through the reviews for
    additional tidbits. (One review on my motherboard said to take a
    picture of the serial number which is on the side of a white port but no where else, not even on the box. He found that after he assembled and
    got it running! [My box seems to have a s/n but will take a picture anyway.])

    Easier to do so before you mount it in the box...


    KM> I need to get some more case fans. Down to dregs.
    Better that nothing but yes, buy before need and you might also be able
    to catch a sale.

    You can always find Sunon fans for cheap, and they're extremely durable,
    but noisy. I've only seen one die, and it's probably 25 years old. And
    they move a lot of air (goes with being noisy).

    So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .

    The current computer I'm on (the one with the SouthBridge issue) wants
    an additional fan. Not absolutely sure of the original number of fans because I don't feel like pulling the unit but pretty sure one in the
    rear panel, one for the PSU, and one at top (the latter two I'm sure of!
    <g>) Was running warm, even after the swap in of the CoolerMaster CPU unit, so rigged up power for a 120mm fan and laid on top -- temperature
    drop! Intention of course to mount to the inside where it belongs but
    with the SouthBridge issue and so eventual replacement of the
    motherboard haven't bothered.

    If they're that much of a cooling problem I just leave the side panels
    off. Problem solved!!

    That does make sense, though having some sort of filter might help keep
    dust out. OTOH sufficient airflow shouldn't give time for the dust to settle. I do have a few cases with front panel ventilation.

    Yeah, I need to get some more of those magnetic fan-cover filters for
    the intake fans. Work great.


    KM> My personal favorite is a gag fan some fan mfgr made and sent to
    KM> Gamer's Nexus -- it just fits the side of a standard case. The
    KM> WHOLE side!!

    <snortle> Who stuck the extra zero on the mm figure?!

    Apparently :D

    KM> See also their recent expose of Newegg's RMA BS. (Two videos,
    KM> watch in order.) Conclusion, which some of us already knew: never
    KM> buy anything from Newegg that doesn't have a direct manufacturer
    KM> warranty. Also, never buy anything fragile from Newegg.

    So far <knock on wood> I've not had problems with Newegg, but then I

    Me neither, but I took a lesson from others' pain, and only buy from
    there what has a manufacturer warranty, or is essentially unbreakable.

    Newegg makes LOT of complaints of DOA hard drives, apparently due to mishandling, and SSDs that are grey market thus no U.S. warranty (have
    to be returned to Europe, which costs more than the drive did).

    don't buy too much from them. Sort of along the same lines I remember semi-recently I was going to buy something at Amazon which was lsied as
    them plus several dealers/shops. Lowest price by ~$15 was from a dealer (also free shipping) but the reviews complained of shoddy (not just poor) packaging: broke open, etc. I don't need missing parts and other
    hassels so spent the few extra dollars.

    Yeah, I shop the dealer more than the part, given quality often depends
    on the dealer being honest.

    BTW Jacobsparts (store site or ebay) is a good source for good quality
    cables and such at good prices.
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Friday, February 18, 2022 10:28:00

    Hi Ky!

    > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    KM> You followin' me? :D
    Out of morbid curiosity!
    I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your
    money's worth. <g>

    We talking human or animal?



    Right. Another factor I consider is the future: try to anticipate what
    I will need for several years down the road. Did get the i5-12600K.
    Did see the other options that were compatible but the comments kept pointing to the i5-12600K or the i7-12700K -- must be a reason.
    Considering it's about 10x faster that where you started, it'll
    be spectacular. <g>

    Oo! got the answer before I entered the search term!



    As for the cooling towers the only ones I have used are the CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO and the Cryorig H7 Plus. Using only one fan and seems to
    be fine. The other fan can always be used as a replacement elsewhere.
    The fanciest one I have is a generic tower cooler I got off eBay
    for about $15 (it's taller than normal and gets the heat exchange
    well away from the motherboard). Works great. Quad-core 3.2GHz
    idles around 30C.

    The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be
    due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere
    near the thermal cut-off point.



    The reason I went with the Noctura is they seemed to be the only ones I could find a LGA1700 mounting for among the three brands. Maybe not
    That can be the constraint, yeah. If it don't fit, ain't worth
    nothin'.

    I'm not sure the adhesive on Duct Tape would hold up to the heat. <g>
    There were some comments on one could buy an adapter to modify other
    fans. I considered; didn't find so that took care of that option for
    me. I was going to comprare the cost of the adapter to a new fan --
    both the direct-fit one and replacement of the fan I have here --
    currently spare but sort of have a destination use.


    carried yet, though that doesn't seem right. Also where I was reading
    the Noctura seemed to be highly rated and pretty much the only brand mentioned. No, I wasn't anywhere near the Noctura forum!
    They seem to be reasonably good, tho pricey.

    Yes, I thought the pricing was bit high too. Other people have done the research and probably know more how to read the results (me: oh yeah -
    copper is a better conductor than this other). Plus I didn't see where another brand was coming up -- certainly not the only ones making a fan
    to fit? Well, do remember one but horizontal: seemed like it would
    cover some of the RAM.


    KM> The coolers I've got in Silver and Fireball are HP surplus.
    KM> Didn't like the look or price of what else was handy, these got
    KM> good reviews from genuine IT types, so tried one. Idling under
    KM> 25C?? Impressed, bought another. Still impressed. (And that with
    That _is_ good! Here generally running in the low 90's øF (~33øC), but
    of course part of that 'hotter' might be the processor, plus I've
    noticed LibreOffice tends to warm things up. Closed/none is definately cooler than 6 or 8 open documents.
    Busy is definitely warmer. Modern CPUs self-throttle when not
    busy, often down to half or a third their max speed.

    Right -- actually kind of amazing they do: computer running itself.
    Probably the way I keep files open is inefficient for the computer but
    that's more efficient for me -- they're in progress.


    KM> the fan turned down about halfway, that being where it starts
    KM> being audible outside the case. Silver downspeeds it
    KM> automagically, Fireball has a rheostat.)
    Gee, you could have used a switch bank and made it look Dr.
    Frankenstein-y!
    It's already a frankenputer... Silver's only parts that came
    together were the mainboard and CPU! Fireball didn't even have
    that, the board happened to fit a loose CPU and loose RAM, and
    off we went.

    Works for me! I tend to construct a 'mega computer' for my primary use,
    also one for the MythTV Backend, and as require to be bigger/badder/
    better will be dropped to the next level, the computer being replaced in
    turn dropped a level, finally replacing the oldest.slowest computer
    which generally stil gets to hang around because spares are good!

    The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an
    upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really
    speeds up otherwise slow computers!



    KM> I need to get some more case fans. Down to dregs.
    Better that nothing but yes, buy before need and you might also be able
    to catch a sale.
    You can always find Sunon fans for cheap, and they're extremely
    durable, but noisy. I've only seen one die, and it's probably 25
    years old. And they move a lot of air (goes with being noisy).

    I might have you beat! I have some Muffin fans removed from mainframes
    in the mid-70's. Initially appears to be 45 years but I can't say has
    been running continuously: know several were in storage and replaced one
    that died -- either beyond recovery by relubrcating or a couple the plastic/rubber ring the fan blades attach to broke. (Ring encircled the
    2" motor shaft, held with friction. Dried or shrunk or something -
    fracture line.)

    Was reading newer fans are quieter because bigger diameter so can rotate
    slower to move the same amount of air. Also the blades aren't spaced
    exactly evenly: being offset slightly reduces the air turbulance so it quieter.


    So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .

    Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs).
    Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going
    to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save
    on shipping.



    The current computer I'm on (the one with the SouthBridge issue) wants
    an additional fan. Not absolutely sure of the original number of fans because I don't feel like pulling the unit but pretty sure one in the
    rear panel, one for the PSU, and one at top (the latter two I'm sure of!
    <g>) Was running warm, even after the swap in of the CoolerMaster CPU unit, so rigged up power for a 120mm fan and laid on top -- temperature drop! Intention of course to mount to the inside where it belongs but
    with the SouthBridge issue and so eventual replacement of the
    motherboard haven't bothered.
    If they're that much of a cooling problem I just leave the side
    panels off. Problem solved!!

    Oh good: maybe I don't have a problem! ...The new MythTV Backend is
    using a recycled case. The tower cooler for the CPU is about a
    quarter-inch too high so the side panel doesn't fit. Thinking dust
    issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is
    against the cabinet, so doesn't show, plus no accidental finger-poken.
    I did put a 80 mm fan at the bottom-center of the open side to help move
    air around.


    That does make sense, though having some sort of filter might help keep
    dust out. OTOH sufficient airflow shouldn't give time for the dust to settle. I do have a few cases with front panel ventilation.
    Yeah, I need to get some more of those magnetic fan-cover filters
    for the intake fans. Work great.

    Back to the open side cover thing I was considering some sort of cover -
    filter material maybe. Not sure magnetic would work as relatively
    narrow metal strip to attach to. Was also considering removing the
    center portion of the panel, replacing with what though as would need
    to be 'pootched' out a half-inch or so.




    KM> See also their recent expose of Newegg's RMA BS. (Two videos,
    KM> watch in order.) Conclusion, which some of us already knew: never
    KM> buy anything from Newegg that doesn't have a direct manufacturer
    KM> warranty. Also, never buy anything fragile from Newegg.
    So far <knock on wood> I've not had problems with Newegg, but then I
    Me neither, but I took a lesson from others' pain, and only buy
    from there what has a manufacturer warranty, or is essentially unbreakable.

    And probably essentially the same here. I tend not to be too concerned
    with manufacturer's warranties, though do use as a gauge of how good
    something is: if one manufacturer for 3 months and another for one year
    the latter seems to have more confidence in what they made.


    Newegg makes LOT of complaints of DOA hard drives, apparently due
    to mishandling, and SSDs that are grey market thus no U.S.
    warranty (have to be returned to Europe, which costs more than
    the drive did).

    Probably right -- I haven't needed to purchase any for a while,
    combination of 'purchasing in bulk' to get a slight discount, going to
    use anyway -- and recycling the old stuff here. I do generally stick
    with name brand -- maybe just automatically have followed the
    guidelines you suggested.


    don't buy too much from them. Sort of along the same lines I remember semi-recently I was going to buy something at Amazon which was listed as them plus several dealers/shops. Lowest price by ~$15 was from a dealer (also free shipping) but the reviews complained of shoddy (not just poor) packaging: broke open, etc. I don't need missing parts and other
    hassels so spent the few extra dollars.
    Yeah, I shop the dealer more than the part, given quality often
    depends on the dealer being honest.

    If something is significantly lower than the trend it starts to raise a
    red flag with me: why? Frequently because shipping not included (not
    always a bad thing -- I've saved money paying for shipping. In this $15 instance shipping was included but lots of complaint posts on packaging
    issues. Nah: not worth the potential hassle.


    BTW Jacobsparts (store site or ebay) is a good source for good
    quality cables and such at good prices.

    Yes, you've mentioned them before and I have done some purchasing from
    them. Good quality.


    ¯ BarryMartin3@ ®
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Sunday, February 20, 2022 11:27:00
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!

    > > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    > KM> You followin' me? :D
    > Out of morbid curiosity!
    KM> I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your
    KM> money's worth. <g>

    We talking human or animal?

    Bugs. <g>

    The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be
    due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere
    near the thermal cut-off point.

    Which is generally 80C for older CPUs, 100C for more-modern CPUs.

    > The reason I went with the Noctura is they seemed to be the only ones I
    > could find a LGA1700 mounting for among the three brands. Maybe not
    KM> That can be the constraint, yeah. If it don't fit, ain't worth
    KM> nothin'.

    I'm not sure the adhesive on Duct Tape would hold up to the heat. <g>

    Yes, that might be sticky in the wrong ways <g>

    There were some comments on one could buy an adapter to modify other
    fans. I considered; didn't find so that took care of that option for
    me. I was going to comprare the cost of the adapter to a new fan --
    both the direct-fit one and replacement of the fan I have here --
    currently spare but sort of have a destination use.

    There are adapters for some sockets, yeah. Usually they do it by having multiple screw holes in the mounting base (plate attached to the back of
    the mainboard), so wherever your socket puts 'em, they'll hit in the
    right spot.

    > carried yet, though that doesn't seem right. Also where I was reading
    > the Noctura seemed to be highly rated and pretty much the only brand
    > mentioned. No, I wasn't anywhere near the Noctura forum!
    KM> They seem to be reasonably good, tho pricey.

    Yes, I thought the pricing was bit high too. Other people have done the research and probably know more how to read the results (me: oh yeah -
    copper is a better conductor than this other). Plus I didn't see where another brand was coming up -- certainly not the only ones making a fan
    to fit? Well, do remember one but horizontal: seemed like it would
    cover some of the RAM.

    Lower dB and higher CFA... another consideration is whether it can help
    cool the various other hot things, like mosfets and RAM. I recall one
    that had a shroud that covered up some hot stuff and that wasn't so good
    for the whole.

    KM> Busy is definitely warmer. Modern CPUs self-throttle when not
    KM> busy, often down to half or a third their max speed.

    Right -- actually kind of amazing they do: computer running itself.
    Probably the way I keep files open is inefficient for the computer but
    that's more efficient for me -- they're in progress.

    Yeah, and now two types of core, one for performance, one for slow.

    Works for me! I tend to construct a 'mega computer' for my primary use,
    also one for the MythTV Backend, and as require to be bigger/badder/
    better will be dropped to the next level, the computer being replaced in
    turn dropped a level, finally replacing the oldest.slowest computer
    which generally stil gets to hang around because spares are good!

    Yeah, mine get parts kicked downhill as available too. Then find some
    job and take a long time to finally retire to the Closet. <g>

    The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an
    upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really
    speeds up otherwise slow computers!

    Yeah, it does wonders for that. Six times the data flow.

    KM> You can always find Sunon fans for cheap, and they're extremely
    KM> durable, but noisy. I've only seen one die, and it's probably 25
    KM> years old. And they move a lot of air (goes with being noisy).

    I might have you beat! I have some Muffin fans removed from mainframes
    in the mid-70's. Initially appears to be 45 years but I can't say has

    Woah... used to have a couple of vintage fans like that, but got lost in
    the Great Northward Migration. High power, noisy, but dang could they
    move the air.

    Was reading newer fans are quieter because bigger diameter so can rotate slower to move the same amount of air. Also the blades aren't spaced
    exactly evenly: being offset slightly reduces the air turbulance so it quieter.

    Yeah, that and using different blade shapes. I haven't paid that much attention.


    KM> So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .

    Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs).

    Next time you see a good deal, let me know!

    Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going
    to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save
    on shipping.

    Yeah. I have some salvaged from power supplies, but would have to rewire
    'em.

    KM> If they're that much of a cooling problem I just leave the side
    KM> panels off. Problem solved!!

    Oh good: maybe I don't have a problem! ...The new MythTV Backend is
    using a recycled case. The tower cooler for the CPU is about a
    quarter-inch too high so the side panel doesn't fit. Thinking dust

    That tower cooler I've got is a near thing. Almost touches the side panel.

    issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is

    I've found the airflow thing is mostly a myth. They talk a good line but
    when temperature is much lower with MY airflow than with THEIR airflow,
    and I see that over and over... well, I stopped worrying about it.

    I remember the top-end Dell someone gift me because persistent
    overheating caused chronic crashing, and it was borderline even with
    water cooling (which he didn't send with it, put it all back to stock).
    And everyone was all OH NOES you can't mess with their meticulously
    designed cooling, that would be bad! Erm, their meticulous design is overheating at idle, how much harm could I do??

    So I ditched their stupid shroud, replaced the thoroughly useless
    fanless heatsink with a proper if generic heatsink-with-fan, added an
    intake fan, and its CPU temperature dropped 40F degrees. Yes, FORTY
    DEGREES.

    And it never crashed again (at least not until the capacitors failed).

    Same with leaving the side panels off. Then you don't need to worry
    about evacuating the hot air; it leaves all by itself.

    Same reason I like to have a top vent, to let it escape.

    against the cabinet, so doesn't show, plus no accidental finger-poken.
    I did put a 80 mm fan at the bottom-center of the open side to help move
    air around.

    I'd leave the open side a fingerwidth away from the side of the cabinet,
    to let more hot air escape.

    KM> Yeah, I need to get some more of those magnetic fan-cover filters
    KM> for the intake fans. Work great.
    Back to the open side cover thing I was considering some sort of cover - filter material maybe. Not sure magnetic would work as relatively
    narrow metal strip to attach to. Was also considering removing the
    center portion of the panel, replacing with what though as would need
    to be 'pootched' out a half-inch or so.

    Well, given it's where you can't stick your foot into it, I'd just leave enough room for circulation and not worry about it.

    Bullet ran with both sides off for years; only reason they're on now is
    cuz it's not running due to Rearranging Of Hardware. Bullet's
    southbridge likes to run at 220F, so the less between it and the open
    air, the better.

    Got a copper heatsink for that but so far have not quite figured out how
    to make it fit... might need a different one.
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Monday, February 21, 2022 11:21:00

    Hi Ky!

    > > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning.
    > KM> You followin' me? :D
    > Out of morbid curiosity!
    KM> I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your
    KM> money's worth. <g>
    We talking human or animal?
    Bugs. <g>

    Computer or insect?!


    The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be
    due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere
    near the thermal cut-off point.
    Which is generally 80C for older CPUs, 100C for more-modern CPUs.

    Still seems 'funny' to have a CPU running up to the boiling point of
    water! ...Remember the old job about using the CD tray as a cup holder?
    Too bad can't run the CPU heat out and use to keep our coffee/tea warm!



    There were some comments on one could buy an adapter to modify other
    fans. I considered; didn't find so that took care of that option for
    me. I was going to comprare the cost of the adapter to a new fan --
    both the direct-fit one and replacement of the fan I have here --
    currently spare but sort of have a destination use.
    There are adapters for some sockets, yeah. Usually they do it by
    having multiple screw holes in the mounting base (plate attached
    to the back of the mainboard), so wherever your socket puts 'em,
    they'll hit in the right spot.

    Yup: that's the way my tower fan attached: line up Part I, then line up
    Part 2 by fiddling with the bracket to fit into the mounting holes of
    Part 1. ...Actually not too bad, though I found it easier to see what
    was supposed to be done from a YouTube video as opposed to the printed instructions.


    > carried yet, though that doesn't seem right. Also where I was reading
    > the Noctura seemed to be highly rated and pretty much the only brand
    > mentioned. No, I wasn't anywhere near the Noctura forum!
    KM> They seem to be reasonably good, tho pricey.
    Yes, I thought the pricing was bit high too. Other people have done the research and probably know more how to read the results (me: oh yeah - copper is a better conductor than this other). Plus I didn't see where another brand was coming up -- certainly not the only ones making a fan
    to fit? Well, do remember one but horizontal: seemed like it would
    cover some of the RAM.
    Lower dB and higher CFA... another consideration is whether it
    can help cool the various other hot things, like mosfets and RAM.
    I recall one that had a shroud that covered up some hot stuff and
    that wasn't so good for the whole.

    Covering up hot stuff is generally a good idea, though if using that
    cooling fan to try to cool other stuff maybe not such a good idea. The
    shroud I had housing the dust buffalos apparently was there to help
    direct the hot air towards the rear panel.


    KM> Busy is definitely warmer. Modern CPUs self-throttle when not
    KM> busy, often down to half or a third their max speed.
    Right -- actually kind of amazing they do: computer running itself.
    Probably the way I keep files open is inefficient for the computer but that's more efficient for me -- they're in progress.
    Yeah, and now two types of core, one for performance, one for
    slow.

    Yes: took me a while to figure that one out: "12 core (8p, 4e)". OK,
    eight an' four iz twelve, but the 'p' and 'e' didn't have a meaning for
    a while. Did finally see spelt out or otherwise defined: performance
    and efficiency. ...Then there are the ones that have a sharing... Good Grief!!


    Works for me! I tend to construct a 'mega computer' for my primary use, also one for the MythTV Backend, and as require to be bigger/badder/
    better will be dropped to the next level, the computer being replaced in turn dropped a level, finally replacing the oldest.slowest computer
    which generally stil gets to hang around because spares are good!
    Yeah, mine get parts kicked downhill as available too. Then find
    some job and take a long time to finally retire to the Closet. <g>

    I finally did some sorting out of Parts I'll Probably Never Use. An AGP
    video card went in that box! Not sure if even worth attempting to list
    on eBay. Some time back had randomly checked prices of stuff in that
    box - almost more bother than worth, plus how long have those listings
    been up?


    The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really
    speeds up otherwise slow computers!
    Yeah, it does wonders for that. Six times the data flow.

    Definitely a faster boot; didn't notice any performance change as far as
    MythTV was concerned. The old/slow computers are pretty much designed
    to be used as MythTV Frontends only, though have the capability of a
    full Ubuntu system. Not going to be writing letters in the Ironing
    Room. Might look up something on the Web. Watch a show while doing
    laundry? Sure!


    KM> You can always find Sunon fans for cheap, and they're extremely
    KM> durable, but noisy. I've only seen one die, and it's probably 25
    KM> years old. And they move a lot of air (goes with being noisy).
    I might have you beat! I have some Muffin fans removed from mainframes
    in the mid-70's. Initially appears to be 45 years but I can't say has
    Woah... used to have a couple of vintage fans like that, but got
    lost in the Great Northward Migration. High power, noisy, but
    dang could they move the air.

    Yup! Here now just used for pink noise while sleeping.


    Was reading newer fans are quieter because bigger diameter so can rotate slower to move the same amount of air. Also the blades aren't spaced exactly evenly: being offset slightly reduces the air turbulance so it quieter.
    Yeah, that and using different blade shapes. I haven't paid that
    much attention.

    I haven't either. More "bigger tends to be quieter". When purchasing
    is more "that's a decent price" along with brand, type of sleeve/bearing
    thing, and dB.



    KM> So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each .
    Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs).
    Next time you see a good deal, let me know!

    Will do! ...Wanna share that 161 minimum order?! <inside joke if
    anyone else is reading through this>


    Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going
    to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save
    on shipping.
    Yeah. I have some salvaged from power supplies, but would have to
    rewire 'em.

    I've got some power supplies needing to have the replaced -- mostly the
    80 mm fan but maybe a 120. Generally the failed PSUs have also been
    smaller output power so almost better to replace the power supply with
    one of higher wattage.




    issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is
    I've found the airflow thing is mostly a myth. They talk a good
    line but when temperature is much lower with MY airflow than with
    THEIR airflow, and I see that over and over... well, I stopped
    worrying about it.

    Pretty much good enough for me! I can sort of visualize having a
    contained box could cause better air flow as 'force' the air to come in
    form this point and be direct out that point. OTOH also seems there
    could be a quiet pool of air at the bottom. One computer with a tall
    tower case may or may not have had that problem: video card was at the
    bottom, PSU and fan at the top. I don't recall where the front panel
    venting was. Anyway, for some reason I started getting concerned about
    a potential lack of/reduction of air flow in the bottom, or at least for
    the video card and whatever other cards were down there. Had a fan with
    a broken mount, Velcroed it to the bottom of the case to blow up. (Was
    he kind of fan with intake from the side.)




    I remember the top-end Dell someone gift me because persistent
    overheating caused chronic crashing, and it was borderline even
    with water cooling (which he didn't send with it, put it all back
    to stock). And everyone was all OH NOES you can't mess with their meticulously designed cooling, that would be bad! Erm, their
    meticulous design is overheating at idle, how much harm could I
    do??

    So I ditched their stupid shroud, replaced the thoroughly useless
    fanless heatsink with a proper if generic heatsink-with-fan,
    added an intake fan, and its CPU temperature dropped 40F degrees.
    Yes, FORTY DEGREES.

    And it never crashed again (at least not until the capacitors
    failed).

    Take that designers! I'm sort of the opinion there are times when the college-degreed designers know more than I do, but I'm also of the
    opinion there are times when they're stuck because that's the way they
    learned it. Your fan substitution is on example. (And besides, someone
    has to invent or discover stuff -- may as well be me!)



    Same with leaving the side panels off. Then you don't need to
    worry about evacuating the hot air; it leaves all by itself.
    Same reason I like to have a top vent, to let it escape.

    Heat rises!


    against the cabinet, so doesn't show, plus no accidental finger-poken.
    I did put a 80 mm fan at the bottom-center of the open side to help move
    air around.
    I'd leave the open side a fingerwidth away from the side of the
    cabinet, to let more hot air escape.

    That's pretty much what I'm doing with "BE4" here (the 4th version of
    the MythTV Backend). Plus some of the spacing is because that's the
    width of the side panel cover I'm storing next to unit so it doesn't get
    lost.


    KM> Yeah, I need to get some more of those magnetic fan-cover filters
    KM> for the intake fans. Work great.
    Back to the open side cover thing I was considering some sort of cover - filter material maybe. Not sure magnetic would work as relatively
    narrow metal strip to attach to. Was also considering removing the
    center portion of the panel, replacing with what though as would need
    to be 'pootched' out a half-inch or so.
    Well, given it's where you can't stick your foot into it, I'd
    just leave enough room for circulation and not worry about it.

    OK; probably was going to end up that way anyway.


    Bullet ran with both sides off for years; only reason they're on
    now is cuz it's not running due to Rearranging Of Hardware.
    Bullet's southbridge likes to run at 220F, so the less between it
    and the open air, the better.

    I might figure a way to blow air across it. Attach an old CPU fan
    (~40mm -- whatever the sizing is - going by memory) to an L-bracket
    attached to the drive bay case or some place sturdy/convenient.


    Got a copper heatsink for that but so far have not quite figured
    out how to make it fit... might need a different one.

    My fan idea might be easier than metalworking!



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