BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good
as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used --
works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale
price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the

Yeah, there's a lot of scalping going on.

CPU via eBay: their eBay store shop's price was a dollar less than
buying from their website directly (which was the same as lowest price
on Amazon). So I saved a dollar!!

Congrats, O Thrifty Scot!

KM> And we won't even discuss the price of used motherboards...
I haven't purchased a used motherboard in ages: have been trickling down
my own.

I haven't bought a new one in 20 years. The trickle-down always starts
from someone else. :D

But every so often I trawl 'em and lordy the prices have gone up.

KM> It looks like insanity to we who expect things to work as-is out
KM> of the box without having to hunt up a bunch of pricey
KM> modifications.

Probably my basis for expecting the "AMD approved" CPU fan to properly
cool when I don't overclock, don't make the CPU do excessive woro, I
have proper air circulation, etc.

Yeah, comes as a nasty surprise when you expected Workee Now!

KM> Actually, IIRC it was immersed in oil with a cooling pump. And I
KM> was like.. for that much mess I can buy a faster CPU. But no
KM> challenge in that!

OK, that aspect I'd probably have a gaping mouth: electronics and
liquids generally don't mix, so seeing a computer taking a bath would
give a bit of that wow factor.

Mineral oil is thermally conductive but not electrically conductive. Presumably that's what they used (it's what's inside transformers).

..Didn't the cooling fans have a hard time rotating in the oil? <bseg>

LOL, likely would :D

KM> Yeah, that's why I don't put too much stock in benchmarks that
KM> use only games to crank the numbers.
I used the comparison charts to try to do a final verification it wasn't worth the extra money for the i7 over the i5 for my usage. Overall the

Close enough when all you need is that kind of comparison.

i7 was slightly better -- very slightly -- but IMO not worth the extra
money (which I effectively spent on additional RAM).

RAM generally does more for performance, for sure. How much did you get?

I like to max out RAM when I can. Tho it'll be a while before Fireball
gets maxed (can do 192GB; presently 64GB). Also, can't claim I really
have a good reason for that much. 32GB can get squeezy with current
browsers, but I don't do anything needing more than 64GB.

Well, yet!

KM> cards that score 11,000. The rest of the hardware isn't up to
KM> that, and I can't justify a $1200 vidcard!!!

Nor can I!! I'll look to see what the high-end options offer: sometimes learn about stuff I didn't know existed or forgot existed. (Two
monitors became handy somewhat recently -- up until then didn't really
care if a video card could handle more than one.) ...High resolution?

Yeah, when I find myself with a higher-resolution monitor that it can't handle, then I'll consider a higher-end video card.

Well, I think some of the TVs here can handle 4K; monitors don't. SO
I'm not going to pay for 4K much less 8K capability, though maybe if a
little bit more I might on the theory if can do 4K it will have no
problems doing 1080.

1080 is plenty for video. Can be a little inadequate for a desktop.

KM> Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!!

Really! Apparently the lack of proper cooling was causing the CPU to throttle some as after the surgical removal it seemed to run better.
Not to mention quieter: no dust buffaloes drumming on the fan blades!

Must have been really packed... maybe it was a buffalo jump. <g>

KM> What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??

None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to

Ah, I forgot.

avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to

How much video memory does it allow? I'm fine with integrated graphics
so long as it's some reasonable amount. (Unlike the Dell quadcore that
only allows 8MB, that's MB, as shared video RAM. Uh, no.)

answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via
the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also

I just ordered several random ones for no reason other than "don't have
that one".

Yes, that noise factor is a relatively frequent topic coming up in the
MythTV Forum. Fanless video cards are somewhat recommended for that
reason. OTOH have the PSU fan, the CPU fan.... Everybody around here
is resonably quiet, though I get suspicious if things are too quiet!

Silence is overheated :)

KM> Bullet's vidcard has a replaceable fan (many are not) but those
KM> one-inch fans have a lifespan of about two minutes, and then they
KM> rattle madly or worse, stop turning but the motor is still
KM> running so get HOT. Finally removed it entirely and let the side
KM> case fan do the job, since it blows almost directly onto the
KM> vidcard. It seems no worse off.

Yes: I know at least one of the built-in fans for the video card around
here has stopped; most don't seem to be replaceable. Dumb! But then one generally can't replace the fan in a PSU either. (<chuckle> I do have a
PSU which was fixed by attaching a 120mm fan to the outside!)

Yeah, that's been my approach. It gets air, it doesn't matter where the
air comes from.

And yes, I do wonder how much heat is created by the locked motor. Have
some old Muffin fans here (taken out of service in mainframes in the
early 70's) -- when they lock up they do get rather hot! IIRC rated 14
W.

I can attest that at least with the very small fans, a locked motor can
make a whole lot of heat, way more than the CPU it's supposed to cool.
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Hi Ky!

Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good
as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used --
works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the

Yeah, there's a lot of scalping going on.

That and probably not staying up with current pricing.

CPU via eBay: their eBay store shop's price was a dollar less than
buying from their website directly (which was the same as lowest price
on Amazon). So I saved a dollar!!

Congrats, O Thrifty Scot!

He was very happy!

KM> It looks like insanity to we who expect things to work as-is out
KM> of the box without having to hunt up a bunch of pricey
KM> modifications.
Probably my basis for expecting the "AMD approved" CPU fan to properly
cool when I don't overclock, don't make the CPU do excessive woro, I
have proper air circulation, etc.

Yeah, comes as a nasty surprise when you expected Workee Now!

Yup: it's not like one an just stick the old heatsink and fan on
something else -- like a video card. Basically buying to throw out.

KM> Actually, IIRC it was immersed in oil with a cooling pump. And I
KM> was like.. for that much mess I can buy a faster CPU. But no
KM> challenge in that!
OK, that aspect I'd probably have a gaping mouth: electronics and
liquids generally don't mix, so seeing a computer taking a bath would
give a bit of that wow factor.

Mineral oil is thermally conductive but not electrically
conductive. Presumably that's what they used (it's what's inside transformers).

Right -- just seems counterintuitive. As for the transformers could be explained with the insulation on the wires. Wrong, but semi-logical.

i7 was slightly better -- very slightly -- but IMO not worth the extra
money (which I effectively spent on additional RAM).

RAM generally does more for performance, for sure. How much did
you get?

32 GB (2x16). The 16 GB pair (2x8). Price comparison to 4x8 was less expensive.

I like to max out RAM when I can. Tho it'll be a while before
Fireball gets maxed (can do 192GB; presently 64GB). Also, can't
claim I really have a good reason for that much. 32GB can get
squeezy with current browsers, but I don't do anything needing
more than 64GB.
Well, yet!

That's part of my considerations: my current needs are (list) and looks
like the future will require (list), so let's allow for that. As for
the RAM, the usual memory utilities show I probably could get by with 8
GB (hmm: I'm using 7 currently - that's higher than normal) but
apparently there is usage not shown: the space is available so is used,
or loaded or something.

KM> cards that score 11,000. The rest of the hardware isn't up to
KM> that, and I can't justify a $1200 vidcard!!!
Nor can I!! I'll look to see what the high-end options offer: sometimes learn about stuff I didn't know existed or forgot existed. (Two
monitors became handy somewhat recently -- up until then didn't really
care if a video card could handle more than one.) ...High resolution?

Yeah, when I find myself with a higher-resolution monitor that it
can't handle, then I'll consider a higher-end video card.

EGA Rulz! <ggg>

Well, I think some of the TVs here can handle 4K; monitors don't. SO
I'm not going to pay for 4K much less 8K capability, though maybe if a little bit more I might on the theory if can do 4K it will have no
problems doing 1080.

1080 is plenty for video. Can be a little inadequate for a
desktop.

Though that depends on the eyeballs viewing that Desktop!

KM> Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!!
Really! Apparently the lack of proper cooling was causing the CPU to throttle some as after the surgical removal it seemed to run better.
Not to mention quieter: no dust buffaloes drumming on the fan blades!

Must have been really packed... maybe it was a buffalo jump. <g>

Their residue was fairly compacted! My theory is when the refurbishing
was done they got missed: stuck in the dark hood, a dark colour --
refurbisher probably gave the unit a good general air blast plus the
usual extra squirts into the hiding places. Nothing popped out - good
to go!

Here the dust family continued to happily add members, until that
fateful day when bursting at the seams extended to the fan blades.
(Me:) Who's that knocking in there?

KM> What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??
None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to

Ah, I forgot.

Geeze, you'd think amongst the thousands of other things you memorize
you'd memorize that! <bseg>

avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to

How much video memory does it allow? I'm fine with integrated
graphics so long as it's some reasonable amount. (Unlike the Dell
quadcore that only allows 8MB, that's MB, as shared video RAM.
Uh, no.)

Uh. let's see.... HDMI and DisplayPort "supports a maximum resolution
of 4K 60Hz". ...Well, I'm not finding the number -- maybe depends on
the CPU?

answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via
the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also

I just ordered several random ones for no reason other than
"don't have that one".

They're good to have on hand before needing! Also why I sometimes order
spares of stuff when I'm ordering the one I need.

KM> Bullet's vidcard has a replaceable fan (many are not) but those
KM> one-inch fans have a lifespan of about two minutes, and then they
KM> rattle madly or worse, stop turning but the motor is still
KM> running so get HOT. Finally removed it entirely and let the side
KM> case fan do the job, since it blows almost directly onto the
KM> vidcard. It seems no worse off.
Yes: I know at least one of the built-in fans for the video card around
here has stopped; most don't seem to be replaceable. Dumb! But then one generally can't replace the fan in a PSU either. (<chuckle> I do have a
PSU which was fixed by attaching a 120mm fan to the outside!)

Yeah, that's been my approach. It gets air, it doesn't matter
where the air comes from.

At first having the card supply its own airflow made sense. Probably
still does as a for-certain thing, but it seems those fans fail too consistently and unnoticed. (AFAICT pSensor doens't have an option for
a GPU fan, but then maybe no option on the video card so didn't list.)
So yes, blowing air from another source is just as good and probably
easier to monitor.

And yes, I do wonder how much heat is created by the locked motor. Have some old Muffin fans here (taken out of service in mainframes in the
early 70's) -- when they lock up they do get rather hot! IIRC rated 14
W.

I can attest that at least with the very small fans, a locked
motor can make a whole lot of heat, way more than the CPU it's
supposed to cool.

Heard of twice-baked potatoes? We now have twice baked CPU!




� BarryMartin3@ �
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... He was hairier than Chewbacca dipped in Rogaine.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good
> as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used --
> works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the
> extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale
> price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the
KM> Yeah, there's a lot of scalping going on.
That and probably not staying up with current pricing.

Some stuff, scalpers snarfed up and it's not even available elsewhere.
The problem has been so severe that one of the vidcard vendors tried to
make no-resale a condition of sale, but of course that didn't fly (not
legal in the US, either).

KM> Yeah, comes as a nasty surprise when you expected Workee Now!
Yup: it's not like one an just stick the old heatsink and fan on
something else -- like a video card. Basically buying to throw out.

Or why I have a box full of crappy AMD heatsinks, aka scrap aluminum.
(of course I didn't buy them, but they fell on my head along with some
AMD mainboard, since deceased.)

KM> Mineral oil is thermally conductive but not electrically
KM> conductive. Presumably that's what they used (it's what's inside
KM> transformers).
Right -- just seems counterintuitive. As for the transformers could be explained with the insulation on the wires. Wrong, but semi-logical.

Water is conductive so we expect every liquid to be, but ain't so. <g>

KM> RAM generally does more for performance, for sure. How much did
KM> you get?
32 GB (2x16). The 16 GB pair (2x8). Price comparison to 4x8 was less expensive.

Probably the minimum any everyday system should have nowadays.

And this way when you see another 32GB at a good price, you can upgrade
it sufficient to last the life of the system.

KM> I like to max out RAM when I can. Tho it'll be a while before
KM> Fireball gets maxed (can do 192GB; presently 64GB). Also, can't
KM> claim I really have a good reason for that much. 32GB can get
KM> squeezy with current browsers, but I don't do anything needing
KM> more than 64GB.
KM> Well, yet!

That's part of my considerations: my current needs are (list) and looks
like the future will require (list), so let's allow for that. As for
the RAM, the usual memory utilities show I probably could get by with 8
GB (hmm: I'm using 7 currently - that's higher than normal) but
apparently there is usage not shown: the space is available so is used,
or loaded or something.

Theoretically we can get by with 2GB, the OS specs tell us so. The
moment you start running a browser, that goes out the window.

KM> Yeah, when I find myself with a higher-resolution monitor that it
KM> can't handle, then I'll consider a higher-end video card.

EGA Rulz! <ggg>

Herc monochrome -- in amber!! Preserved like a fly.

KM> 1080 is plenty for video. Can be a little inadequate for a
KM> desktop.

Though that depends on the eyeballs viewing that Desktop!

And whether you have Little Teeny Eyes. <g>

https://people.well.com/user/bubbles/LilTEyes.txt

> KM> Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!!
> Really! Apparently the lack of proper cooling was causing the CPU to
> throttle some as after the surgical removal it seemed to run better.
> Not to mention quieter: no dust buffaloes drumming on the fan blades!
KM> Must have been really packed... maybe it was a buffalo jump. <g>
Their residue was fairly compacted! My theory is when the refurbishing
was done they got missed: stuck in the dark hood, a dark colour -- refurbisher probably gave the unit a good general air blast plus the
usual extra squirts into the hiding places. Nothing popped out - good
to go!

Ah, yeah, that can happen. Especially if it's got cig smoke residue;
that stuff is like cobwebs mixed with glue.

Here the dust family continued to happily add members, until that
fateful day when bursting at the seams extended to the fan blades.
(Me:) Who's that knocking in there?

That's a different sort of knock-knock joke...

> KM> What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??
> None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to
KM> Ah, I forgot.

Geeze, you'd think amongst the thousands of other things you memorize
you'd memorize that! <bseg>

Apparently I only remember your broken stuff. <g>

> avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to
KM> How much video memory does it allow? I'm fine with integrated
KM> graphics so long as it's some reasonable amount. (Unlike the Dell
KM> quadcore that only allows 8MB, that's MB, as shared video RAM.
KM> Uh, no.)

Uh. let's see.... HDMI and DisplayPort "supports a maximum resolution
of 4K 60Hz". ...Well, I'm not finding the number -- maybe depends on
the CPU?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=video+ram+required+for+4k&t=h_&ia=web

Consensus for video RAM seems to be:
2GB for viewing 4k. 8GB for 4k gaming. 32GB or more for editing.

Someone did some tests, mostly gaming: https://www.tweaktown.com/tweakipedia/89/much-vram-need-1080p-1440p-4k/index.html

Geez, I hadn't been to that site in ages. Used to subscribe to their newsletter, but then they went paywall and I said what you got that they
don't got? But they seem to have figured out that's not competitive.

> answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via
> the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the
> second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also
KM> I just ordered several random ones for no reason other than
KM> "don't have that one".

They're good to have on hand before needing! Also why I sometimes order spares of stuff when I'm ordering the one I need.

Yeah, if I use one, I'll probably use another!

One might think this went too far when I ordered a matched pair of motherboards... but they became Gremlin and Dink and I got many years
use of them. (And now they're worth more than I paid.. Tyan 440BX boards
with lots of slots. Once in a while I get someone wanting to buy 'em.)

KM> I can attest that at least with the very small fans, a locked
KM> motor can make a whole lot of heat, way more than the CPU it's
KM> supposed to cool.

Heard of twice-baked potatoes? We now have twice baked CPU!

That was literally true. Someone gift me a PC that persistently crashed
... their "tech" couldn't fix it. (No wonder, obviously had never opened
the case. Sorry, your tech is either incompetent or a scammer, and
considering the guy supposedly built this POS too, I vote scammer.) So I opened it up and... the CPU fan was PACKED with cig smoke residue, and
the fan was seized, but when I powered up I found the motor was still
running, and it had been so hot for so long that the whole assembly
crumbled at a touch.

Bakelite is temperature-stable up to about 325F, and even then takes a
while to go brittle. So THAT is how hot it had been... for a LONG TIME.

Well, no freakin' wonder it always crashed after just a few minutes!

Mind you, this was a lowly Pentium III 500MHz, and that CPU can scrape
by with a passive heatsink. It just doesn't get all that hot. So the fan
motor was a great deal of the heat source, evidently more than the CPU.

The mainboard was also corroded and magic smoke came out of the onboard video... anyway, Gremlin needed a CPU upgrade. So I swapped in this one, and... power blip, then nothing. Restarted... powered on, but nothing. Restarted again, and after a long delay it came up ... and was perfectly
fine. CPU was in use til Gremlin was retired ten years later, and NEVER CRASHED.

I was astonished. No AMD CPU of the era survived an overheat event, but
this old Intel survived a nuclear apocalypse!!
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Hi Ky!

> Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good
> as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used --
> works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the
> extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale
> price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the
KM> Yeah, there's a lot of scalping going on.
That and probably not staying up with current pricing.

Some stuff, scalpers snarfed up and it's not even available
elsewhere. The problem has been so severe that one of the vidcard
vendors tried to make no-resale a condition of sale, but of
course that didn't fly (not legal in the US, either).

And if was legal probably could get around by giving the item for free
but charging a huge shipping fee.

KM> Yeah, comes as a nasty surprise when you expected Workee Now!
Yup: it's not like one an just stick the old heatsink and fan on
something else -- like a video card. Basically buying to throw out.

Or why I have a box full of crappy AMD heatsinks, aka scrap
aluminum. (of course I didn't buy them, but they fell on my head
along with some AMD mainboard, since deceased.)

I figure the fans might be worthwhile for auxiliary cooling in the case.

KM> Mineral oil is thermally conductive but not electrically
KM> conductive. Presumably that's what they used (it's what's inside
KM> transformers).
Right -- just seems counterintuitive. As for the transformers could be explained with the insulation on the wires. Wrong, but semi-logical.

Water is conductive so we expect every liquid to be, but ain't
so. <g>

That's the other way of putting it.

KM> RAM generally does more for performance, for sure. How much did
KM> you get?
32 GB (2x16). The 16 GB pair (2x8). Price comparison to 4x8 was less expensive.

Probably the minimum any everyday system should have nowadays.
And this way when you see another 32GB at a good price, you can
upgrade it sufficient to last the life of the system.

That's the plan! (OMG! You read my mind!!) Buying sufficient RAM now
gets the system going, plus isn't so stressful on the credit card bill.
Plus the addition later should give a nice little speed boost later,to
make the additional money spent visually worthwhile.

KM> I like to max out RAM when I can. Tho it'll be a while before
KM> Fireball gets maxed (can do 192GB; presently 64GB). Also, can't
KM> claim I really have a good reason for that much. 32GB can get
KM> squeezy with current browsers, but I don't do anything needing
KM> more than 64GB.
KM> Well, yet!
That's part of my considerations: my current needs are (list) and looks
like the future will require (list), so let's allow for that. As for
the RAM, the usual memory utilities show I probably could get by with 8
GB (hmm: I'm using 7 currently - that's higher than normal) but
apparently there is usage not shown: the space is available so is used,
or loaded or something.

Theoretically we can get by with 2GB, the OS specs tell us so.
The moment you start running a browser, that goes out the window.

Same as one can get by with a bicycle for transportation but when it
rains or snows one is going to appreciate the extra covering of a car.
Not sure if "carrying groceries/etc." is a good arguement after seeing
some of those what-they-do-in-India pictures!

KM> 1080 is plenty for video. Can be a little inadequate for a
KM> desktop.
Though that depends on the eyeballs viewing that Desktop!

And whether you have Little Teeny Eyes. <g> https://people.well.com/user/bubbles/LilTEyes.txt

<chuckle>

Sort of like the bit of a shock I would get from wandering the Hardware Department at the store: some of the tools diameters were bigger than my electronic tool's length! I've got #2 nuts and bolts - their diameter
is still smaller than the spring on some of those tools!

> KM> What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??
> None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to
KM> Ah, I forgot.
Geeze, you'd think amongst the thousands of other things you memorize
you'd memorize that! <bseg>

Apparently I only remember your broken stuff. <g>

Good: it's easier than me retyping the specs!

> avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to
KM> How much video memory does it allow? I'm fine with integrated
KM> graphics so long as it's some reasonable amount. (Unlike the Dell
KM> quadcore that only allows 8MB, that's MB, as shared video RAM.
KM> Uh, no.)
Uh. let's see.... HDMI and DisplayPort "supports a maximum resolution
of 4K 60Hz". ...Well, I'm not finding the number -- maybe depends on
the CPU?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=video+ram+required+for+4k&t=h_&ia=web

I should be fine. There's always the AGC card I might still have in the
box in the basement!

> answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via
> the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the
> second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also
KM> I just ordered several random ones for no reason other than
KM> "don't have that one".
They're good to have on hand before needing! Also why I sometimes order spares of stuff when I'm ordering the one I need.

Yeah, if I use one, I'll probably use another!

Plus as I used the first one I ordered when I was looking for a spare
it's not a spare!

One might think this went too far when I ordered a matched pair
of motherboards... but they became Gremlin and Dink and I got
many years use of them. (And now they're worth more than I paid..
Tyan 440BX boards with lots of slots. Once in a while I get
someone wanting to buy 'em.)

How do those people find out what you have?? (OK to respond privately.)

They probably could just about care less what I have: IMO nothing all
that special. Now some of the daughtercards.... (I did a quick look
while in the basement -- put the snow stuff down there to hang. Got
about 2�" of light fluff snow overnight. Didn't see but then probably
in the bottom box of the short stack.)

KM> I can attest that at least with the very small fans, a locked
KM> motor can make a whole lot of heat, way more than the CPU it's
KM> supposed to cool.
Heard of twice-baked potatoes? We now have twice baked CPU!

That was literally true. Someone gift me a PC that persistently
crashed ... their "tech" couldn't fix it. (No wonder, obviously
had never opened the case. Sorry, your tech is either incompetent
or a scammer, and considering the guy supposedly built this POS
too, I vote scammer.) So I opened it up and... the CPU fan was
PACKED with cig smoke residue, and the fan was seized, but when I
powered up I found the motor was still running, and it had been
so hot for so long that the whole assembly crumbled at a touch.

Ouch -- on several points! I miss the tech I used occasionally: got a
job on the East Coast so moved. He was almost overly honest: could not
give him a tip. (Was a sole proprietor shop so not like had to follow
the boss's rules.)

Bakelite is temperature-stable up to about 325F, and even then
takes a while to go brittle. So THAT is how hot it had been...
for a LONG TIME.

Ow-ow-ow-ow!!!

The mainboard was also corroded and magic smoke came out of the
onboard video... anyway, Gremlin needed a CPU upgrade. So I
swapped in this one, and... power blip, then nothing.
Restarted... powered on, but nothing. Restarted again, and after
a long delay it came up ... and was perfectly fine. CPU was in
use til Gremlin was retired ten years later, and NEVER CRASHED.

They just don't make 'em like that any more! OTOH could have been the
thermal shutdown in the CPU saved it. The several reboots and then
worked could have been (I'm guessing) the system trying the original
BIOS configuration, then retrying, maybe retrying again with a minor alternation, then finally retrying but this time from bare-bones
scratch.

I was astonished. No AMD CPU of the era survived an overheat
event, but this old Intel survived a nuclear apocalypse!!

Ta-daaaaa! Hopefully no issue like that here!


� BarryMartin3@ �
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
> That and probably not staying up with current pricing.
KM> Some stuff, scalpers snarfed up and it's not even available
KM> elsewhere. The problem has been so severe that one of the vidcard
KM> vendors tried to make no-resale a condition of sale, but of
KM> course that didn't fly (not legal in the US, either).

And if was legal probably could get around by giving the item for free
but charging a huge shipping fee.

Ah, but that's a well-known tactic for selling known-dead junk (and for
money laundering).

KM> Or why I have a box full of crappy AMD heatsinks, aka scrap
KM> aluminum. (of course I didn't buy them, but they fell on my head
KM> along with some AMD mainboard, since deceased.)

I figure the fans might be worthwhile for auxiliary cooling in the case.

That too :)

KM> Probably the minimum any everyday system should have nowadays.
KM> And this way when you see another 32GB at a good price, you can
KM> upgrade it sufficient to last the life of the system.

That's the plan! (OMG! You read my mind!!) Buying sufficient RAM now
gets the system going, plus isn't so stressful on the credit card bill.
Plus the addition later should give a nice little speed boost later,to
make the additional money spent visually worthwhile.

Yep. Just make sure whatever you get for the other 32gb is an exact
match. And be sure to use the paired slots.

I buy used RAM at about half new price, and it all works fine. <g>

KM> Theoretically we can get by with 2GB, the OS specs tell us so.
KM> The moment you start running a browser, that goes out the window.

Same as one can get by with a bicycle for transportation but when it
rains or snows one is going to appreciate the extra covering of a car.
Not sure if "carrying groceries/etc." is a good arguement after seeing
some of those what-they-do-in-India pictures!

Remarkable balance... then again, I used to haul 50 pound feed bags on a bicycle, so...

Sort of like the bit of a shock I would get from wandering the Hardware Department at the store: some of the tools diameters were bigger than my electronic tool's length! I've got #2 nuts and bolts - their diameter
is still smaller than the spring on some of those tools!

Barry! What were you up to??! <g>

KM> One might think this went too far when I ordered a matched pair
KM> of motherboards... but they became Gremlin and Dink and I got
KM> many years use of them. (And now they're worth more than I paid..
KM> Tyan 440BX boards with lots of slots. Once in a while I get
KM> someone wanting to buy 'em.)

How do those people find out what you have?? (OK to respond privately.)

http://twilightasylum.com/pc/the_borg.htm

Rather outdated, but you get the idea. I need to separate out the
laptops, having collected enough of 'em to be a visual nuisance.

Started as a way to keep track of hardware... got out of hand <g>

Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer with us.

They probably could just about care less what I have: IMO nothing all
that special. Now some of the daughtercards.... (I did a quick look
while in the basement -- put the snow stuff down there to hang. Got
about 2«" of light fluff snow overnight. Didn't see but then probably
in the bottom box of the short stack.)

Oh, for a moment I thought there was snow in your basement!

> Heard of twice-baked potatoes? We now have twice baked CPU!
KM> That was literally true. Someone gift me a PC that persistently
KM> crashed ... their "tech" couldn't fix it. (No wonder, obviously
KM> had never opened the case. Sorry, your tech is either incompetent
KM> or a scammer, and considering the guy supposedly built this POS
KM> too, I vote scammer.) So I opened it up and... the CPU fan was
KM> PACKED with cig smoke residue, and the fan was seized, but when I
KM> powered up I found the motor was still running, and it had been
KM> so hot for so long that the whole assembly crumbled at a touch.

Ouch -- on several points! I miss the tech I used occasionally: got a
job on the East Coast so moved. He was almost overly honest: could not
give him a tip. (Was a sole proprietor shop so not like had to follow
the boss's rules.)

Good for him!

KM> Bakelite is temperature-stable up to about 325F, and even then
KM> takes a while to go brittle. So THAT is how hot it had been...
KM> for a LONG TIME.

Ow-ow-ow-ow!!!

Campfire clones will you boot up tonight...

KM> The mainboard was also corroded and magic smoke came out of the
KM> onboard video... anyway, Gremlin needed a CPU upgrade. So I
KM> swapped in this one, and... power blip, then nothing.
KM> Restarted... powered on, but nothing. Restarted again, and after
KM> a long delay it came up ... and was perfectly fine. CPU was in
KM> use til Gremlin was retired ten years later, and NEVER CRASHED.

They just don't make 'em like that any more! OTOH could have been the thermal shutdown in the CPU saved it. The several reboots and then

Probably. Thermal shutdown on a P3 was somewhere around 180F. The fan
didn't get the message. Damn wonder it didn't start a fire.

worked could have been (I'm guessing) the system trying the original
BIOS configuration, then retrying, maybe retrying again with a minor alternation, then finally retrying but this time from bare-bones
scratch.

Nope, BIOS would have spit up a message. I've seen this before, tho --
abused hardware sometimes takes a few tries to get going, or needs some
time off. I wonder if proper electrical conditions does something to
realign gates, or something. I remember when CDROM drives that had
apparently failed could sometimes be resurrected simply by sitting
without power overnight.

KM> I was astonished. No AMD CPU of the era survived an overheat
KM> event, but this old Intel survived a nuclear apocalypse!!

Ta-daaaaa! Hopefully no issue like that here!

Thermal design limit on current Intel CPUs is 200F, just saw somewhere. They're actually pretty tough.

Was looking for the design limit on P3 to refresh memory, didn't find
that but did find a couple other interesting things:

NASA testing of P3 and K6 CPUs:

https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/8A499785-90F7-4A77-B90913144A0402D1/MAPLD02_Howard_P3.pdf

https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/412CE442-9CC9-4E93-B83F616BC4FD6A1F/MAPLD01_P3.pdf

design considerations for heat pipes:

https://celsiainc.com/heat-sink-blog/heat-pipe-design-guide/
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Hi Ky!

> That and probably not staying up with current pricing.
KM> Some stuff, scalpers snarfed up and it's not even available
KM> elsewhere. The problem has been so severe that one of the vidcard
KM> vendors tried to make no-resale a condition of sale, but of
KM> course that didn't fly (not legal in the US, either).
And if was legal probably could get around by giving the item for free
but charging a huge shipping fee.

Ah, but that's a well-known tactic for selling known-dead junk
(and for money laundering).

There are times when just a part is needed, so dead isn't always bad.
The money laundering aspect I think you sugested a while back when I
couldn't figure out why someone would sell a common $17.99 item for
$1000. And what's sort of funny is places like eBay have various
options to sort including high-to-low. Why would someone want to pay
the highest possible price? Can see the option when wanting to more
quickly get to multiple quantity purchasing: the sold individually are
going to be on the lowest price end and the I want two dozen options
towards the upper price end.

KM> Or why I have a box full of crappy AMD heatsinks, aka scrap
KM> aluminum. (of course I didn't buy them, but they fell on my head
KM> along with some AMD mainboard, since deceased.)
I figure the fans might be worthwhile for auxiliary cooling in the case.

That too :)

Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
fins are long enough could hold up notes!

KM> Probably the minimum any everyday system should have nowadays.
KM> And this way when you see another 32GB at a good price, you can
KM> upgrade it sufficient to last the life of the system.
That's the plan! (OMG! You read my mind!!) Buying sufficient RAM now
gets the system going, plus isn't so stressful on the credit card bill.
Plus the addition later should give a nice little speed boost later,to
make the additional money spent visually worthwhile.

Yep. Just make sure whatever you get for the other 32gb is an
exact match. And be sure to use the paired slots.

Yup and yup!

I buy used RAM at about half new price, and it all works fine. <g>

I have in the past and also have had no issues. I do buy from a site
with customer protection as a back-up; LIS a while back I was going to
buy something from Amazon which had their direct option plus some
sellers. First seller was cheaper by about $15 and also free shipping.
Works for me! ...Check reviews -- horrible! Nope, not worthin saving
$15 for the potential aggrivation of damaged merchandise!

KM> Theoretically we can get by with 2GB, the OS specs tell us so.
KM> The moment you start running a browser, that goes out the window.
Same as one can get by with a bicycle for transportation but when it
rains or snows one is going to appreciate the extra covering of a car.
Not sure if "carrying groceries/etc." is a good arguement after seeing
some of those what-they-do-in-India pictures!

Remarkable balance... then again, I used to haul 50 pound feed
bags on a bicycle, so...

That's not a proper way to refer to your elementary school date!

Sort of like the bit of a shock I would get from wandering the Hardware Department at the store: some of the tools diameters were bigger than my electronic tool's length! I've got #2 nuts and bolts - their diameter
is still smaller than the spring on some of those tools!

Barry! What were you up to??! <g>

I can't say here!

KM> One might think this went too far when I ordered a matched pair
KM> of motherboards... but they became Gremlin and Dink and I got
KM> many years use of them. (And now they're worth more than I paid..
KM> Tyan 440BX boards with lots of slots. Once in a while I get
KM> someone wanting to buy 'em.)
How do those people find out what you have?? (OK to respond privately.)

http://twilightasylum.com/pc/the_borg.htm

Ah! I forgot about that list. Plus have seen (various versions of)
signatures in forums listing their equipment. Here would be confusion:
OK, the computer I'm using to post this has the specifications listed in
the sig but the computer I'm inquiring about is a different one....

Rather outdated, but you get the idea. I need to separate out the
laptops, having collected enough of 'em to be a visual nuisance.

Actually could be rather fun to see the progression. Could possibly add
a column for sorting -- laptops, desktops, mainframes -- though may as
well allow for sorting in some other columns too: I'm thinking mainly
date and processor progression.

Started as a way to keep track of hardware... got out of hand <g>

Yeah: I never got to a master chart for the computers though do have a mostly-accurate listing for the IP addresses. I've attempted to have individual notes on what's in each computer. We'll just say "it's the
thought that counts".

Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer
with us.

RIP - stands for RIPped apart!

They probably could just about care less what I have: IMO nothing all
that special. Now some of the daughtercards.... (I did a quick look
while in the basement -- put the snow stuff down there to hang. Got
about 2«" of light fluff snow overnight. Didn't see but then probably
in the bottom box of the short stack.)

Oh, for a moment I thought there was snow in your basement!

It could look like it! The box for the TV we got a while back is down
there. Easy enough to cut up the cardboard to fit in the recycle bin
but holding the Styrofoam the TV was packed in. Need to break into
small chunks and throw away but not going to do in the basement and have
those little white pellets all over!

KM> Bakelite is temperature-stable up to about 325F, and even then
KM> takes a while to go brittle. So THAT is how hot it had been...
KM> for a LONG TIME.
Ow-ow-ow-ow!!!

Campfire clones will you boot up tonight...

I'll admit to getting a bit nervous when I smell smoke and I don't know
the source. Neighbour heats his house with a wood fireplace and if the
wind is coming from the right direction I'll smell it. Also the first
time in the season the furnace is turned on here: dust burns off.

KM> The mainboard was also corroded and magic smoke came out of the
KM> onboard video... anyway, Gremlin needed a CPU upgrade. So I
KM> swapped in this one, and... power blip, then nothing.
KM> Restarted... powered on, but nothing. Restarted again, and after
KM> a long delay it came up ... and was perfectly fine. CPU was in
KM> use til Gremlin was retired ten years later, and NEVER CRASHED.
They just don't make 'em like that any more! OTOH could have been the thermal shutdown in the CPU saved it. The several reboots and then

Probably. Thermal shutdown on a P3 was somewhere around 180F. The
fan didn't get the message. Damn wonder it didn't start a fire.

Why a good thing to blow out the dust every so often: less to be fuel.

worked could have been (I'm guessing) the system trying the original
BIOS configuration, then retrying, maybe retrying again with a minor alternation, then finally retrying but this time from bare-bones
scratch.

Nope, BIOS would have spit up a message. I've seen this before,
tho -- abused hardware sometimes takes a few tries to get going,
or needs some time off. I wonder if proper electrical conditions
does something to realign gates, or something. I remember when
CDROM drives that had apparently failed could sometimes be
resurrected simply by sitting without power overnight.

OK - I've had a few instances of bad boots and no message but sort of
assumed the video system (computer's or monitor's) didn't act fast enoug
to get display. Also the sometimes takes two or three boots to get out
from a problem.

The overnight without power could be the time it takes to discharge a
power capacitor, along the lines of a power boot (keep off for 60
seconds) vs. a reboot.

KM> I was astonished. No AMD CPU of the era survived an overheat
KM> event, but this old Intel survived a nuclear apocalypse!!
Ta-daaaaa! Hopefully no issue like that here!

Thermal design limit on current Intel CPUs is 200F, just saw
somewhere. They're actually pretty tough.

Still say they could make a nice little coffee or tea warmer option!

Was looking for the design limit on P3 to refresh memory, didn't
find that but did find a couple other interesting things:
NASA testing of P3 and K6 CPUs:

https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/8A499785-90F7-4A77-B90913144A0402 D1/MAPLD02_Ho
ard_P3.pdf

Character must be missing as I got a 404 -- did indicate was able to go
to the downloads section.

https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/412CE442-9CC9-4E93-B83F616BC4FD6A 1F/MAPLD01_P3
pdf

"dot pdf". That missing character was easy!

Hmmm: "AMD K7 ... details of technology not available". If NASA can't
get the info....

design considerations for heat pipes: https://celsiainc.com/heat-sink-blog/heat-pipe-design-guide/

Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the
pipe.




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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> And if was legal probably could get around by giving the item for free
> but charging a huge shipping fee.
KM> Ah, but that's a well-known tactic for selling known-dead junk
KM> (and for money laundering).

There are times when just a part is needed, so dead isn't always bad.

There are a few vendors of parts-for-parts who are legit. (One in
particular sells logic boards for hard drives, and repairs 'em too.
They've got a whole bunch of info up on when their parts will NOT work,
and link to it on every item listed. Hint: most HDs past about the 40GB
era cannot be easily repaired, because the ROM is unique to each unit.)

Otherwise, the evidence is overwhelmingly that they're scammers. Regular vendors rarely charge shipping, or very little. Any "shipping" beyond
the bare minimum to cover postage is a flaming redflag that it's a scam.

The usual way is to hope that the buyer doesn't notice it's "for parts
only" (or just an empty box!) or to just call it "used" without
describing it further, and allow returns at buyer's expense... then
charge a whole lot more than actual cost for shipping. The buyer gets defective or wrong merchandise, and returns it for a refund... but the
seller doesn't care, because they made their profit on the shipping charge.

The money laundering aspect I think you sugested a while back when I
couldn't figure out why someone would sell a common $17.99 item for
$1000. And what's sort of funny is places like eBay have various
options to sort including high-to-low. Why would someone want to pay
the highest possible price? Can see the option when wanting to more
quickly get to multiple quantity purchasing: the sold individually are
going to be on the lowest price end and the I want two dozen options
towards the upper price end.

Oh yeah, I first noticed this about 18 years ago. Since I was getting
the occasional inquiry about my Tyan S1830S mainboards... I checked
prices and found the average was about $250, if you could find one (they
were a server board and uncommon in the consumer market). Except for one vendor who ALWAYS had one for sale, for $5000. And it would occasionally
be marked "Sold" but then would immediately be listed again. This went
on for about ten years before they moved on to some other item.

And then I looked around for other abnormally high-priced stuff on eBay
and Amazon, and found quite a lot of $500 USB cables and the like, and
it was always the same vendors, over and over. And quite clearly NOT
just a mistake due to English as a third language, or not understanding American currency.

Made it pretty obvious they were laundering or moving dark money. I'd
guess a lot are payments to three-letter-agency informants, probably
handled as "refunds".

Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
fins are long enough could hold up notes!

I was thinking use 'em as caltrops, but that works too. :)

KM> I buy used RAM at about half new price, and it all works fine. <g>
I have in the past and also have had no issues. I do buy from a site
with customer protection as a back-up; LIS a while back I was going to
buy something from Amazon which had their direct option plus some
sellers. First seller was cheaper by about $15 and also free shipping.
Works for me! ...Check reviews -- horrible! Nope, not worthin saving
$15 for the potential aggrivation of damaged merchandise!

Yeah, I like to see 99% positive feedback on hardware vendors. Anything
less starts to become suspect. Always check the NEGATIVE feedback. Pay a little more and avoid pain. I have a list of saved sellers that I use if
I have a choice.

KM> Remarkable balance... then again, I used to haul 50 pound feed
KM> bags on a bicycle, so...

That's not a proper way to refer to your elementary school date!

LOL well I don't think that bike woulda hauled that much...

> How do those people find out what you have?? (OK to respond privately.)
KM> http://twilightasylum.com/pc/the_borg.htm
Ah! I forgot about that list. Plus have seen (various versions of) signatures in forums listing their equipment. Here would be confusion:

Yeah, in some forums it's expected or even required, so people know what you're complaining about.

OK, the computer I'm using to post this has the specifications listed in
the sig but the computer I'm inquiring about is a different one....

That happens too.

KM> Rather outdated, but you get the idea. I need to separate out the
KM> laptops, having collected enough of 'em to be a visual nuisance.

Actually could be rather fun to see the progression. Could possibly add
a column for sorting -- laptops, desktops, mainframes -- though may as
well allow for sorting in some other columns too: I'm thinking mainly
date and processor progression.

Yeah, I have a simple script for sorting columns and use that, if I feel
the need. (I do that with my fiction character sheets, cuz there are a
lot. If anyone asks me for a character reference....)

This one, in fact:

https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/sorttable/

KM> Started as a way to keep track of hardware... got out of hand <g>

Yeah: I never got to a master chart for the computers though do have a mostly-accurate listing for the IP addresses. I've attempted to have individual notes on what's in each computer. We'll just say "it's the thought that counts".

What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local network?

KM> Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer
KM> with us.

RIP - stands for RIPped apart!

LOL, that. I also especially like the tagline, stolen from a Techhole
video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a basement."

KM> Campfire clones will you boot up tonight...

I'll admit to getting a bit nervous when I smell smoke and I don't know
the source. Neighbour heats his house with a wood fireplace and if the
wind is coming from the right direction I'll smell it. Also the first
time in the season the furnace is turned on here: dust burns off.

Yeah, lot of wood-burning around here so you better know which neighbor
is burning what. Wait, I don't know this one, maybe it's MY house! <g>

KM> Probably. Thermal shutdown on a P3 was somewhere around 180F. The
KM> fan didn't get the message. Damn wonder it didn't start a fire.
Why a good thing to blow out the dust every so often: less to be fuel.

Well, old cig smoke isn't real flammable, but plastic...

KM> Nope, BIOS would have spit up a message. I've seen this before,
KM> tho -- abused hardware sometimes takes a few tries to get going,
KM> or needs some time off. I wonder if proper electrical conditions
KM> does something to realign gates, or something. I remember when
KM> CDROM drives that had apparently failed could sometimes be
KM> resurrected simply by sitting without power overnight.

OK - I've had a few instances of bad boots and no message but sort of
assumed the video system (computer's or monitor's) didn't act fast enoug
to get display. Also the sometimes takes two or three boots to get out
from a problem.

Yeah, seen that too.

The overnight without power could be the time it takes to discharge a
power capacitor, along the lines of a power boot (keep off for 60
seconds) vs. a reboot.

I think that's probably what it was.

KM> Thermal design limit on current Intel CPUs is 200F, just saw
KM> somewhere. They're actually pretty tough.
Still say they could make a nice little coffee or tea warmer option!

You can get a USB mug warmer... tho I gather it doesn't get hot enough.

KM> Was looking for the design limit on P3 to refresh memory, didn't
KM> find that but did find a couple other interesting things:
KM> NASA testing of P3 and K6 CPUs:

KM> https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/8A499785-90F7-4A77-B90913144A0402
KM> D1/MAPLD02_Ho
KM> ard_P3.pdf

Character must be missing as I got a 404 -- did indicate was able to go
to the downloads section.

Must have broke funny on your end. Happens with long links and these old-fashioned ways of writing on rocks. <g>

Hmmm: "AMD K7 ... details of technology not available". If NASA can't
get the info....

K7 was the original Athlon/Sempron family, then still in the pipeline.
At the time way too buggy anyway.

> KM> design considerations for heat pipes:

KM> https://celsiainc.com/heat-sink-blog/heat-pipe-design-guide/

Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the pipe.

Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>
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Hi Ky!

> And if was legal probably could get around by giving the item for free
> but charging a huge shipping fee.
KM> Ah, but that's a well-known tactic for selling known-dead junk
KM> (and for money laundering).
There are times when just a part is needed, so dead isn't always bad.

There are a few vendors of parts-for-parts who are legit. (One in particular sells logic boards for hard drives, and repairs 'em
too. They've got a whole bunch of info up on when their parts
will NOT work, and link to it on every item listed. Hint: most
HDs past about the 40GB era cannot be easily repaired, because
the ROM is unique to each unit.)

Well, yes.... I wasn't thinking to far into the details. Some items
like hard drives require (digital matching) of the components, something
I would not attempt. I was thinking more along the lines of repairing a
TV -- replace the power supply or backlight. That might not even be worthwhile as still have an old TV and for the repair costs might almost
be able to get a new replacement. (I'm not really an advocate of break- and-toss -- it depends. TV -- new would be better if for just the
better tuner, Audio amplifer like for a decent system: probably -- and
have.)

Otherwise, the evidence is overwhelmingly that they're scammers.
Regular vendors rarely charge shipping, or very little. Any
"shipping" beyond the bare minimum to cover postage is a flaming
redflag that it's a scam.

Right: I like free shipping, though of course that's built into the merchandise cost. A reasonable shipping fee is also acceptable, just
don't try to also put one in the merchandise cost and double-charge me.
$100 for shipping a lightweight item?? Did I just buy part of the
truck?

The usual way is to hope that the buyer doesn't notice it's "for
parts only" (or just an empty box!) or to just call it "used"
without describing it further, and allow returns at buyer's
expense... then charge a whole lot more than actual cost for
shipping. The buyer gets defective or wrong merchandise, and
returns it for a refund... but the seller doesn't care, because
they made their profit on the shipping charge.

If the price is super-low by comparison I get suspicious: something is
wrong. Parts-only selling isn't always a bad thing: a repair shop would probably like them on hand. Also have seen where someone is selling a probably-OK item but is unable to test: remember reading something like "worked fine last time I used it but unable to test so selling as
parts-only".

The money laundering aspect I think you sugested a while back when I couldn't figure out why someone would sell a common $17.99 item for
$1000. And what's sort of funny is places like eBay have various
options to sort including high-to-low. Why would someone want to pay
the highest possible price? Can see the option when wanting to more quickly get to multiple quantity purchasing: the sold individually are
going to be on the lowest price end and the I want two dozen options
towards the upper price end.

Oh yeah, I first noticed this about 18 years ago. Since I was
getting the occasional inquiry about my Tyan S1830S mainboards...
I checked prices and found the average was about $250, if you
could find one (they were a server board and uncommon in the
consumer market). Except for one vendor who ALWAYS had one for
sale, for $5000. And it would occasionally be marked "Sold" but
then would immediately be listed again. This went on for about
ten years before they moved on to some other item.

Amazing how all the buyers backed out!

And then I looked around for other abnormally high-priced stuff
on eBay and Amazon, and found quite a lot of $500 USB cables and
the like, and it was always the same vendors, over and over. And
quite clearly NOT just a mistake due to English as a third
language, or not understanding American currency.
Made it pretty obvious they were laundering or moving dark money.
I'd guess a lot are payments to three-letter-agency informants,
probably handled as "refunds".

But when a citizen tries that! <g>

Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
fins are long enough could hold up notes!

I was thinking use 'em as caltrops, but that works too. :)

My little AMD ones aren't even going to tickle!

KM> I buy used RAM at about half new price, and it all works fine. <g>
I have in the past and also have had no issues. I do buy from a site
with customer protection as a back-up; LIS a while back I was going to
buy something from Amazon which had their direct option plus some
sellers. First seller was cheaper by about $15 and also free shipping. Works for me! ...Check reviews -- horrible! Nope, not worthin saving
$15 for the potential aggrivation of damaged merchandise!

Yeah, I like to see 99% positive feedback on hardware vendors.
Anything less starts to become suspect. Always check the NEGATIVE feedback. Pay a little more and avoid pain. I have a list of
saved sellers that I use if I have a choice.

I don't do enough buying to have established a listing but yes, low
feedback will cross that listing out. If what appears to be a new
seller, determined by low sales numbers or low number of feedback I'll
allow a lower overall number but not by too much. Some buyers will give
a bad score just because it was wrapped in used bubble-wrap.

> How do those people find out what you have?? (OK to respond privately.)
KM> http://twilightasylum.com/pc/the_borg.htm
Ah! I forgot about that list. Plus have seen (various versions of) signatures in forums listing their equipment. Here would be confusion:

Yeah, in some forums it's expected or even required, so people
know what you're complaining about.

Makes sense.

OK, the computer I'm using to post this has the specifications listed in
the sig but the computer I'm inquiring about is a different one....

That happens too.

I can confuse people easily enough!

KM> Rather outdated, but you get the idea. I need to separate out the
KM> laptops, having collected enough of 'em to be a visual nuisance. Actually could be rather fun to see the progression. Could possibly add
a column for sorting -- laptops, desktops, mainframes -- though may as
well allow for sorting in some other columns too: I'm thinking mainly
date and processor progression.

Yeah, I have a simple script for sorting columns and use that, if
I feel the need. (I do that with my fiction character sheets, cuz
there are a lot. If anyone asks me for a character reference....)

"He was born on page 34".....

This one, in fact:
https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/sorttable/

That looks worthwhile to keep a note on. :)

KM> Started as a way to keep track of hardware... got out of hand <g> Yeah: I never got to a master chart for the computers though do have a mostly-accurate listing for the IP addresses. I've attempted to have individual notes on what's in each computer. We'll just say "it's the thought that counts".

What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local
network?

nc / netcat ?

nmap -sn ?

KM> Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer
KM> with us.
RIP - stands for RIPped apart!

LOL, that. I also especially like the tagline, stolen from a
Techhole video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a basement."

Not all discoveries are made in formal settings!

KM> Campfire clones will you boot up tonight...
I'll admit to getting a bit nervous when I smell smoke and I don't know
the source. Neighbour heats his house with a wood fireplace and if the
wind is coming from the right direction I'll smell it. Also the first
time in the season the furnace is turned on here: dust burns off.

Yeah, lot of wood-burning around here so you better know which
neighbor is burning what. Wait, I don't know this one, maybe it's
MY house! <g>

Don't want that!

KM> Probably. Thermal shutdown on a P3 was somewhere around 180F. The
KM> fan didn't get the message. Damn wonder it didn't start a fire.
Why a good thing to blow out the dust every so often: less to be fuel.

Well, old cig smoke isn't real flammable, but plastic...

True: cigarette smoke residue would probably not be flammable but could
cause something flammable to heat up to it's flashpoint.

KM> Thermal design limit on current Intel CPUs is 200F, just saw
KM> somewhere. They're actually pretty tough.
Still say they could make a nice little coffee or tea warmer option!

You can get a USB mug warmer... tho I gather it doesn't get hot
enough.

Plus accidentally spilling coffee, tea, hot chocolate, etc., inside the computer is Not A Good Thing!

KM> Was looking for the design limit on P3 to refresh memory, didn't
KM> find that but did find a couple other interesting things:
KM> NASA testing of P3 and K6 CPUs:
KM> https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/8A499785-90F7-4A77-B90913144A0402
KM> D1/MAPLD02_Ho
KM> ard_P3.pdf
Character must be missing as I got a 404 -- did indicate was able to go
to the downloads section.

Must have broke funny on your end. Happens with long links and
these old-fashioned ways of writing on rocks. <g>

Usually line splits are done properly. Usually. <g>

KM> design considerations for heat pipes:
KM> https://celsiainc.com/heat-sink-blog/heat-pipe-design-guide/
Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the pipe.

Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>

Do not wrap in something your assistants can not unwrap you out of!



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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> There are a few vendors of parts-for-parts who are legit. (One in
KM> particular sells logic boards for hard drives, and repairs 'em
KM> too. They've got a whole bunch of info up on when their parts
KM> will NOT work, and link to it on every item listed. Hint: most
KM> HDs past about the 40GB era cannot be easily repaired, because
KM> the ROM is unique to each unit.)

Well, yes.... I wasn't thinking to far into the details. Some items
like hard drives require (digital matching) of the components, something

Used to be you could just swap the logic board (why Maxtors died) with
any of the same model. Then it got to where it had to be same batch. And
now, because platter densities are so high -- unique to each. Apparently
with the right ROM programmer you can create a match.

I would not attempt. I was thinking more along the lines of repairing a
TV -- replace the power supply or backlight. That might not even be worthwhile as still have an old TV and for the repair costs might almost
be able to get a new replacement. (I'm not really an advocate of break- and-toss -- it depends. TV -- new would be better if for just the
better tuner, Audio amplifer like for a decent system: probably -- and have.)

Yeah, that kind of parts.... problem is, what died in one probably died
in all of the same model about the same time, so unless you find new old stock, parts generally don't exist.

KM> Otherwise, the evidence is overwhelmingly that they're scammers.
KM> Regular vendors rarely charge shipping, or very little. Any
KM> "shipping" beyond the bare minimum to cover postage is a flaming
KM> redflag that it's a scam.

Right: I like free shipping, though of course that's built into the merchandise cost. A reasonable shipping fee is also acceptable, just
don't try to also put one in the merchandise cost and double-charge me.
$100 for shipping a lightweight item?? Did I just buy part of the
truck?

That's how most of the "parts only" items are -- $35 shipping for a two
ounce item that sells for some arbitrary price slightly below
used-and-working price. This makes it obvious it's not actually "parts"
but "junk" and either a scam, or drug sales under cover of "parts".

KM> The usual way is to hope that the buyer doesn't notice it's "for
KM> parts only" (or just an empty box!) or to just call it "used"
KM> without describing it further, and allow returns at buyer's
KM> expense... then charge a whole lot more than actual cost for
KM> shipping. The buyer gets defective or wrong merchandise, and
KM> returns it for a refund... but the seller doesn't care, because
KM> they made their profit on the shipping charge.

If the price is super-low by comparison I get suspicious: something is
wrong. Parts-only selling isn't always a bad thing: a repair shop would

Except genuine useful parts are not what they are. With rare and very
specific exceptions (like logic boards for old hard drives), it always
means nonworking junk. Or outright scam.

probably like them on hand. Also have seen where someone is selling a probably-OK item but is unable to test: remember reading something like "worked fine last time I used it but unable to test so selling as parts-only".

Those exist, but are very rare, and invariably are offered by people who
are NOT regular sellers of whatever-it-is.

Conversely, a whole lot of "tested good" are being sold by people in the general-imports-and-junk business, who obviously have no knowledge
whatsoever of electronics and clearly have not tested anything.

Or why I always check out "other items for sale by this seller" to see
what their actual expertise is.

I just bought a vidcard from someone who'd apparently retired it from
their personal system; their main business is collectable ceramics.
Feedback: excellent packaging and super customer service. Prices fair.
Decided this was an honest seller and went for it. Works great.

Likewise people who specialize in server parts, or are otherwise
specialized like HDs or RAM, usually legitimately test 'em. (Tho one is notorious for resetting HD EPROM to show zero hours and selling as new.
Don't really care because they warranty 'em well enough, and if I buy
from them usually I'm looking for something older anyway.)

But if it were someone selling random everything out of a warehouse?
nope, won't be tested and would be a crapshoot. (But probably working
just because most computer parts are fairly hard to kill, so if priced
very right, and a tough component like RAM, might consider anyway.)

KM> Oh yeah, I first noticed this about 18 years ago. Since I was
KM> getting the occasional inquiry about my Tyan S1830S mainboards...
KM> I checked prices and found the average was about $250, if you
KM> could find one (they were a server board and uncommon in the
KM> consumer market). Except for one vendor who ALWAYS had one for
KM> sale, for $5000. And it would occasionally be marked "Sold" but
KM> then would immediately be listed again. This went on for about
KM> ten years before they moved on to some other item.

Amazing how all the buyers backed out!

Or that they have dozens available of this very rare board!

There are exactly two listed on eBay right now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185277348567?epid=74079715&hash=item2b2363fad7:g:xB8AAOSwFaNh-J-r

This looks like someone who works off the back dock of an electronics recycling center. That's about the going price for this board (even tho
it was made in 1998).

And here's one for 20x the price:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/400329643563?hash=item5d3581962b:g:vGAAAOxy~iJRAWeb

Note that despite listing all sorts of electronic junk (some at fair
prices, some at ridiculous prices, like a $900 battery that goes for
$50, or a server rack for $700 that's basically scrap iron) they've only
got two feedbacks less than a year old. Whether this is the actual company https://berkcom.com/pages/about-us
or someone piggybacking on the name and not legit? Hard to say.

But I've seen probably a dozen vendor names over the years, offering
this particular board for $5000ish.

> Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
> fins are long enough could hold up notes!
KM> I was thinking use 'em as caltrops, but that works too. :)
My little AMD ones aren't even going to tickle!

I'm sure they can be sharpened....

KM> Yeah, I like to see 99% positive feedback on hardware vendors.
KM> Anything less starts to become suspect. Always check the NEGATIVE
KM> feedback. Pay a little more and avoid pain. I have a list of
KM> saved sellers that I use if I have a choice.

I don't do enough buying to have established a listing but yes, low

I've bought quite a lot of stuff off eBay, so have developed Criteria.

feedback will cross that listing out. If what appears to be a new
seller, determined by low sales numbers or low number of feedback I'll
allow a lower overall number but not by too much. Some buyers will give
a bad score just because it was wrapped in used bubble-wrap.

Yeah, there are a variety of judgment calls like that.

KM> Yeah, I have a simple script for sorting columns and use that, if
KM> I feel the need. (I do that with my fiction character sheets, cuz
KM> there are a lot. If anyone asks me for a character reference....)

"He was born on page 34".....

LOL, something like that. <g>

http://www.doomgold.com/writing/characterchart2.html

And that's not complete, just who I remembered off the top of my head
when I took a notion to do this. Reload to return it to default order.
Some of the weird entries are to force sorting since blanks don't work
right.

KM> This one, in fact:
KM> https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/sorttable/

That looks worthwhile to keep a note on. :)

Yeah, it's simple to use. Just put a copy in the same directory, and add

<script src="sorttable.js"></script>

to the <BODY> section of the HTML. Does everything I need it to.

KM> What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local
KM> network?

nc / netcat ?
nmap -sn ?

Well, not in Windows...

> KM> Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer
> KM> with us.
> RIP - stands for RIPped apart!
KM> LOL, that. I also especially like the tagline, stolen from a
KM> Techhole video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a
KM> basement."
Not all discoveries are made in formal settings!

Sometimes the discovery is "The Closet is Full." <g>

> Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the
> pipe.
KM> Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>
Do not wrap in something your assistants can not unwrap you out of!

Hahaha nope, don't do that. Even if you're an Evil Overlord. <g>
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Hi Ky!

KM> There are a few vendors of parts-for-parts who are legit. (One in
KM> particular sells logic boards for hard drives, and repairs 'em
KM> too. They've got a whole bunch of info up on when their parts
KM> will NOT work, and link to it on every item listed. Hint: most
KM> HDs past about the 40GB era cannot be easily repaired, because
KM> the ROM is unique to each unit.)
Well, yes.... I wasn't thinking too far into the details. Some items
like hard drives require (digital matching) of the components, something

Used to be you could just swap the logic board (why Maxtors died)
with any of the same model. Then it got to where it had to be
same batch. And now, because platter densities are so high --
unique to each. Apparently with the right ROM programmer you can
create a match.

Probably while drive recovery costs so much: more difficult with higher platter densities (requires more precision mechanical alignment), plus
each unit is unique, so pretty much starting from scratch with each
repair.

I would not attempt. I was thinking more along the lines of repairing a
TV -- replace the power supply or backlight. That might not even be worthwhile as still have an old TV and for the repair costs might almost
be able to get a new replacement. (I'm not really an advocate of break- and-toss -- it depends. TV -- new would be better if for just the
better tuner, Audio amplifer like for a decent system: probably -- and have.)

Yeah, that kind of parts.... problem is, what died in one
probably died in all of the same model about the same time, so
unless you find new old stock, parts generally don't exist.

Hey: whne recoving the unit may as well build from scratch too!

KM> Otherwise, the evidence is overwhelmingly that they're scammers.
KM> Regular vendors rarely charge shipping, or very little. Any
KM> "shipping" beyond the bare minimum to cover postage is a flaming
KM> redflag that it's a scam.
Right: I like free shipping, though of course that's built into the merchandise cost. A reasonable shipping fee is also acceptable, just
don't try to also put one in the merchandise cost and double-charge me.
$100 for shipping a lightweight item?? Did I just buy part of the
truck?

That's how most of the "parts only" items are -- $35 shipping for
a two ounce item that sells for some arbitrary price slightly
below used-and-working price. This makes it obvious it's not
actually "parts" but "junk" and either a scam, or drug sales
under cover of "parts".

"Look inside specially marked packages for a surprise!"

KM> The usual way is to hope that the buyer doesn't notice it's "for
KM> parts only" (or just an empty box!) or to just call it "used"
KM> without describing it further, and allow returns at buyer's
KM> expense... then charge a whole lot more than actual cost for
KM> shipping. The buyer gets defective or wrong merchandise, and
KM> returns it for a refund... but the seller doesn't care, because
KM> they made their profit on the shipping charge.
If the price is super-low by comparison I get suspicious: something is wrong. Parts-only selling isn't always a bad thing: a repair shop would

Except genuine useful parts are not what they are. With rare and
very specific exceptions (like logic boards for old hard drives),
it always means nonworking junk. Or outright scam.

Right: seems a lot of people are taking advantage of supply chain issues
and so increasing the price on used items which used to be sold at (say)
half the price of new because currently the new is being delayed -- the
used stuff can be had now.

probably like them on hand. Also have seen where someone is selling a probably-OK item but is unable to test: remember reading something like "worked fine last time I used it but unable to test so selling as parts-only".

Those exist, but are very rare, and invariably are offered by
people who are NOT regular sellers of whatever-it-is.

That would be me if I ever get into selling off some of the old stuff.

Conversely, a whole lot of "tested good" are being sold by people
in the general-imports-and-junk business, who obviously have no
knowledge whatsoever of electronics and clearly have not tested
anything.
Or why I always check out "other items for sale by this seller"
to see what their actual expertise is.

Good idea.

I just bought a vidcard from someone who'd apparently retired it
from their personal system; their main business is collectable
ceramics. Feedback: excellent packaging and super customer
service. Prices fair. Decided this was an honest seller and went
for it. Works great.

Makes sense. By your orginal rule the seller might be scammimg but
digging into the specifics seemed to be a valid reason.

Likewise people who specialize in server parts, or are otherwise specialized like HDs or RAM, usually legitimately test 'em. (Tho
one is notorious for resetting HD EPROM to show zero hours and
selling as new. Don't really care because they warranty 'em well
enough, and if I buy from them usually I'm looking for something
older anyway.)

The resetting of the hours seems like it should be a red flag but then
if they're warranting based on their zero hours guess problems fall back
on them. So far seems to be working out for both sides of the cash
register.

But if it were someone selling random everything out of a
warehouse? nope, won't be tested and would be a crapshoot. (But
probably working just because most computer parts are fairly hard
to kill, so if priced very right, and a tough component like RAM,
might consider anyway.)

Right: RAM and CPU are more electronic than mechanical and so probably difficult to damage. Hard drives are more mechanical so more of an
issue with wear. Fans - pretty much pure mechanical and unless
desperate I wouldn't bother buying used.

KM> Oh yeah, I first noticed this about 18 years ago. Since I was
KM> getting the occasional inquiry about my Tyan S1830S mainboards...
KM> I checked prices and found the average was about $250, if you
KM> could find one (they were a server board and uncommon in the
KM> consumer market). Except for one vendor who ALWAYS had one for
KM> sale, for $5000. And it would occasionally be marked "Sold" but
KM> then would immediately be listed again. This went on for about
KM> ten years before they moved on to some other item.
Amazing how all the buyers backed out!

Or that they have dozens available of this very rare board!

Well y'know that crate that's been sittin' in the corner with all that
dust on it? WEll, someone finally got around to openin' it and guess
wha'?!

There are exactly two listed on eBay right now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185277348567?epid=74079715&hash=item2b236 3fad7:g:xB8AA
SwFaNh-J-r
This looks like someone who works off the back dock of an
electronics recycling center. That's about the going price for
this board (even tho it was made in 1998).

I think the county's electronics recycling facility does recover and
sell some items it takes in, but AFAIK it identifies itself. ...Well,
did a quick search and Scott County Iowa is present and has items but
they're generally vintage postcards, maps, etc.

And here's one for 20x the price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/400329643563?hash=item5d3581962b:g:vGAAAO xy~iJRAWeb

"Seller refurbished" might mean they tested and replaced some parts
like aging electrolytic capacitors or could just mean they air dusted
and dipped in solvent to make shiny and pretty again.

Note that despite listing all sorts of electronic junk (some at
fair prices, some at ridiculous prices, like a $900 battery that
goes for $50, or a server rack for $700 that's basically scrap
iron) they've only got two feedbacks less than a year old.
Whether this is the actual company
https://berkcom.com/pages/about-us or someone piggybacking on the
name and not legit? Hard to say.

I might also get a little suspcious when seeing a thousand ratings at
5.0 -- _everybody_ is perfectly happy??

But I've seen probably a dozen vendor names over the years,
offering this particular board for $5000ish.

So you're picking onn this one seller with super-low overhead as he live
sin his parents' basement, works at the recycling facilty, snuck out
this board.... <g>

> Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
> fins are long enough could hold up notes!
KM> I was thinking use 'em as caltrops, but that works too. :)
My little AMD ones aren't even going to tickle!

I'm sure they can be sharpened....

<wince!>

KM> Yeah, I like to see 99% positive feedback on hardware vendors.
KM> Anything less starts to become suspect. Always check the NEGATIVE
KM> feedback. Pay a little more and avoid pain. I have a list of
KM> saved sellers that I use if I have a choice.
I don't do enough buying to have established a listing but yes, low

I've bought quite a lot of stuff off eBay, so have developed
Criteria.

Which is why I am paying attention. :)

KM> Yeah, I have a simple script for sorting columns and use that, if
KM> I feel the need. (I do that with my fiction character sheets, cuz
KM> there are a lot. If anyone asks me for a character reference....)
"He was born on page 34".....

LOL, something like that. <g> http://www.doomgold.com/writing/characterchart2.html

Aiy! I'd need a chart to read the book!

And that's not complete, just who I remembered off the top of my
head when I took a notion to do this. Reload to return it to
default order. Some of the weird entries are to force sorting
since blanks don't work right.

I scanned through and say "zzz" which I figured was a placeholder. Some
sort utilities don't always play nice with blank fields, or like the
incident I had in college doing keypunch: my cards were right (well, for
this example!) but the programmer didn't put in the 'clear field' so if
Card #1 had a second address line ("Apartment 123") it would print out (correct), but if Card 2 did not have a second address line (because it
was a house) then it would print out with "Apartment 123". Computer guy
said it was me, I checked and tested, then proved to him it was his error,
he still said it was me. I got a meeting together with him, my boss,
his boss's secretary (a V.P.).... It did not turn out well for the
computer guy.

KM> What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local
KM> network?
nc / netcat ?
nmap -sn ?

Well, not in Windows...

ipconfig /all should work for starters. ...Though the way things are phrased in the summary doesn't seem right

arp -a ...This sounds familiar.

> KM> Note the status column; some are reduced to parts or no longer
> KM> with us.
> RIP - stands for RIPped apart!
KM> LOL, that. I also especially like the tagline, stolen from a
KM> Techhole video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a
KM> basement."
Not all discoveries are made in formal settings!

Sometimes the discovery is "The Closet is Full." <g>

...Argh! I can't recall the name of the storage company: they'll put a
metal storage container on the property. They'll also ship the
container to another site.

> Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the
> pipe.
KM> Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>
Do not wrap in something your assistants can not unwrap you out of!

Hahaha nope, don't do that. Even if you're an Evil Overlord. <g>

I'm not evil, I just had a bad day!




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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

KM> Used to be you could just swap the logic board (why Maxtors died)
KM> with any of the same model. Then it got to where it had to be
KM> same batch. And now, because platter densities are so high --
KM> unique to each. Apparently with the right ROM programmer you can
KM> create a match.

Probably while drive recovery costs so much: more difficult with higher platter densities (requires more precision mechanical alignment), plus
each unit is unique, so pretty much starting from scratch with each
repair.

The cost there is the clean room. Replacing the ROM is about $100.

KM> Yeah, that kind of parts.... problem is, what died in one
KM> probably died in all of the same model about the same time, so
KM> unless you find new old stock, parts generally don't exist.
Hey: whne recoving the unit may as well build from scratch too!

LOL, start over!

KM> That's how most of the "parts only" items are -- $35 shipping for
KM> a two ounce item that sells for some arbitrary price slightly
KM> below used-and-working price. This makes it obvious it's not
KM> actually "parts" but "junk" and either a scam, or drug sales
KM> under cover of "parts".

"Look inside specially marked packages for a surprise!"

https://xkcd.com/325/

Or....

https://xkcd.com/576/

Right: seems a lot of people are taking advantage of supply chain issues
and so increasing the price on used items which used to be sold at (say)
half the price of new because currently the new is being delayed -- the
used stuff can be had now.

Yeah, there was a major spike for a while, but it seems to be leveling out.

> "worked fine last time I used it but unable to test so selling as
> parts-only".
KM> Those exist, but are very rare, and invariably are offered by
KM> people who are NOT regular sellers of whatever-it-is.
That would be me if I ever get into selling off some of the old stuff.

Or... powers up, no way to test it. Those rarely sell, tho.

KM> Likewise people who specialize in server parts, or are otherwise
KM> specialized like HDs or RAM, usually legitimately test 'em. (Tho
KM> one is notorious for resetting HD EPROM to show zero hours and
KM> selling as new. Don't really care because they warranty 'em well
KM> enough, and if I buy from them usually I'm looking for something
KM> older anyway.)

The resetting of the hours seems like it should be a red flag but then
if they're warranting based on their zero hours guess problems fall back
on them. So far seems to be working out for both sides of the cash
register.

Yep... just go there knowing it's probably an old used drive, but in
good condition. But if you need a known-good IDE drive, there aren't
many options anymore. So tested and zero'd and sold as "new" beats not
finding if you need it. I've got a few of theirs with mumble-years of
service, so can't complain.

KM> But if it were someone selling random everything out of a
KM> warehouse? nope, won't be tested and would be a crapshoot. (But
KM> probably working just because most computer parts are fairly hard
KM> to kill, so if priced very right, and a tough component like RAM,
KM> might consider anyway.)

Right: RAM and CPU are more electronic than mechanical and so probably difficult to damage. Hard drives are more mechanical so more of an
issue with wear. Fans - pretty much pure mechanical and unless
desperate I wouldn't bother buying used.

Wear and more, being drop-kicked. Fans get tired and used aren't worth
the trouble, agreed there.

> KM> Oh yeah, I first noticed this about 18 years ago. Since I was
> KM> getting the occasional inquiry about my Tyan S1830S mainboards...
> KM> I checked prices and found the average was about $250, if you
> KM> could find one (they were a server board and uncommon in the
> KM> consumer market). Except for one vendor who ALWAYS had one for
> KM> sale, for $5000. And it would occasionally be marked "Sold" but
> KM> then would immediately be listed again. This went on for about
> KM> ten years before they moved on to some other item.
> Amazing how all the buyers backed out!
KM> Or that they have dozens available of this very rare board!

Well y'know that crate that's been sittin' in the corner with all that
dust on it? WEll, someone finally got around to openin' it and guess
wha'?!

It's a miracle!!

KM> There are exactly two listed on eBay right now:

KM> https://www.ebay.com/itm/185277348567?epid=74079715&hash=item2b236
KM> 3fad7:g:xB8AA
KM> SwFaNh-J-r
KM> This looks like someone who works off the back dock of an
KM> electronics recycling center. That's about the going price for
KM> this board (even tho it was made in 1998).

I think the county's electronics recycling facility does recover and
sell some items it takes in, but AFAIK it identifies itself. ...Well,
did a quick search and Scott County Iowa is present and has items but
they're generally vintage postcards, maps, etc.

KM> And here's one for 20x the price:
KM> https://www.ebay.com/itm/400329643563?hash=item5d3581962b:g:vGAAAO
KM> xy~iJRAWeb

"Seller refurbished" might mean they tested and replaced some parts
like aging electrolytic capacitors or could just mean they air dusted
and dipped in solvent to make shiny and pretty again.

"Seller refurbished" means just made-shiny or nothing much, it never
means what it's supposed to, ie. made good as new including accessories.
So unless it's the original vendor doing it (like the Huion lightbox I
bought for cheap) it's just noise for "probably works".

KM> Note that despite listing all sorts of electronic junk (some at
KM> fair prices, some at ridiculous prices, like a $900 battery that
KM> goes for $50, or a server rack for $700 that's basically scrap
KM> iron) they've only got two feedbacks less than a year old.
KM> Whether this is the actual company
KM> https://berkcom.com/pages/about-us or someone piggybacking on the
KM> name and not legit? Hard to say.

I sent 'em an email and asked. So far no response.

I might also get a little suspcious when seeing a thousand ratings at
5.0 -- _everybody_ is perfectly happy??

Haha, yep. So I mostly read the negative feedback, it's a lot more informative.

KM> But I've seen probably a dozen vendor names over the years,
KM> offering this particular board for $5000ish.

So you're picking onn this one seller with super-low overhead as he live
sin his parents' basement, works at the recycling facilty, snuck out
this board.... <g>

LOL, that. <g>

> > Now nor that heatsink.... Spray paint and make a paperweight? If the
> > fins are long enough could hold up notes!
> KM> I was thinking use 'em as caltrops, but that works too. :)
> My little AMD ones aren't even going to tickle!
KM> I'm sure they can be sharpened....

<wince!>

Watch where you're stepping, it's pokey down there.

> "He was born on page 34".....
KM> LOL, something like that. <g>
KM> http://www.doomgold.com/writing/characterchart2.html
Aiy! I'd need a chart to read the book!

Well, mostly there's no more than 3 or 4 present at a time... and
frequently just one.

KM> And that's not complete, just who I remembered off the top of my
KM> head when I took a notion to do this. Reload to return it to
KM> default order. Some of the weird entries are to force sorting
KM> since blanks don't work right.

I scanned through and say "zzz" which I figured was a placeholder. Some

Yep, cuz otherwise blank lines sort first and that's not useful when a
whole bunch of 'em would otherwise be blank.

sort utilities don't always play nice with blank fields, or like the
incident I had in college doing keypunch: my cards were right (well, for
this example!) but the programmer didn't put in the 'clear field' so if
Card #1 had a second address line ("Apartment 123") it would print out (correct), but if Card 2 did not have a second address line (because it
was a house) then it would print out with "Apartment 123". Computer guy
said it was me, I checked and tested, then proved to him it was his error,
he still said it was me. I got a meeting together with him, my boss,
his boss's secretary (a V.P.).... It did not turn out well for the
computer guy.

OOOPS!!!

> KM> What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local
> KM> network?
> nc / netcat ?
> nmap -sn ?
KM> Well, not in Windows...
ipconfig /all should work for starters. ...Though the way things are phrased in the summary doesn't seem right

Only provides info for the local machine. I've tried the map network
tool and it's goofy.

arp -a ...This sounds familiar.

Not to me!

> KM> Techhole video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a
> KM> basement."
> Not all discoveries are made in formal settings!
KM> Sometimes the discovery is "The Closet is Full." <g>
..Argh! I can't recall the name of the storage company: they'll put a
metal storage container on the property. They'll also ship the
container to another site.

Pods. Looked into 'em when I moved. Storage was all done in Seattle
which meant too much risk of mold if the container isn't perfectly
airtight. Customer service was crap, tho I hear it's since improved.

The problem with shipping to another site is that you still might need
to contract with a local trucker... that wasn't included when I checked
into it.

> > Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending the
> > pipe.
> KM> Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>
> Do not wrap in something your assistants can not unwrap you out of!
KM> Hahaha nope, don't do that. Even if you're an Evil Overlord. <g>

I'm not evil, I just had a bad day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gaqHi6--U8


:D
� RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS � Hollywood, Ca � www.techware2k.com

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Hi Ky!

KM> Used to be you could just swap the logic board (why Maxtors died)
KM> with any of the same model. Then it got to where it had to be
KM> same batch. And now, because platter densities are so high --
KM> unique to each. Apparently with the right ROM programmer you can
KM> create a match.
Probably while drive recovery costs so much: more difficult with higher platter densities (requires more precision mechanical alignment), plus
each unit is unique, so pretty much starting from scratch with each
repair.

The cost there is the clean room. Replacing the ROM is about
$100.

My room is clean: I vacuumed it a couple of days ago! <g>

The $100 ROM is a fair price - more fair the more valuable the data is!
Clean Rooms and the associated procedures -- that's where the expenses
add up! (And the cost of the data back-up suddenyl becomes
significantly smaller!)

KM> Yeah, that kind of parts.... problem is, what died in one
KM> probably died in all of the same model about the same time, so
KM> unless you find new old stock, parts generally don't exist.
Hey: when recoving the unit may as well build from scratch too!

LOL, start over!

Oops: too far: where'd the data go? Was here a minute ago.

KM> That's how most of the "parts only" items are -- $35 shipping for
KM> a two ounce item that sells for some arbitrary price slightly
KM> below used-and-working price. This makes it obvious it's not
KM> actually "parts" but "junk" and either a scam, or drug sales
KM> under cover of "parts".
"Look inside specially marked packages for a surprise!"

https://xkcd.com/325/

I do need to be careful how to phrase things!

Or....
https://xkcd.com/576/

Better yet: send to a nosy or otherwise annoying neighbour or even a
friend and get them on the list! ...(Oh poop: Ky has my address!)

Right: seems a lot of people are taking advantage of supply chain issues
and so increasing the price on used items which used to be sold at (say) half the price of new because currently the new is being delayed -- the
used stuff can be had now.

Yeah, there was a major spike for a while, but it seems to be
leveling out.

Good, though right now I don't need anything (hopefully!).

> "worked fine last time I used it but unable to test so selling as
> parts-only".
KM> Those exist, but are very rare, and invariably are offered by
KM> people who are NOT regular sellers of whatever-it-is.
That would be me if I ever get into selling off some of the old stuff.

Or... powers up, no way to test it. Those rarely sell, tho.

Not recently but I have looked up prices on eBay to compare what I might
be able to get out of something old -- most not that much. Some still
in storage, some went to electronics recycling.

KM> Likewise people who specialize in server parts, or are otherwise
KM> specialized like HDs or RAM, usually legitimately test 'em. (Tho
KM> one is notorious for resetting HD EPROM to show zero hours and
KM> selling as new. Don't really care because they warranty 'em well
KM> enough, and if I buy from them usually I'm looking for something
KM> older anyway.)
The resetting of the hours seems like it should be a red flag but then
if they're warranting based on their zero hours guess problems fall back
on them. So far seems to be working out for both sides of the cash register.

Yep... just go there knowing it's probably an old used drive, but
in good condition. But if you need a known-good IDE drive, there
aren't many options anymore. So tested and zero'd and sold as
"new" beats not finding if you need it. I've got a few of theirs
with mumble-years of service, so can't complain.

Right: if no other real option one gets the "says new but know it's old"
unit.

"Seller refurbished" might mean they tested and replaced some parts
like aging electrolytic capacitors or could just mean they air dusted
and dipped in solvent to make shiny and pretty again.

"Seller refurbished" means just made-shiny or nothing much, it
never means what it's supposed to, ie. made good as new including accessories. So unless it's the original vendor doing it (like
the Huion lightbox I bought for cheap) it's just noise for
"probably works".

So probably keep away from that option unless trust the vendor. The
good news is for my buying it's generally new-in-sealed-box (Scotch tape doesn't count! <g>), though 'open box' at a decent price is a
consideration: customers will buy to 'shotgun test' -- is it this part?
Nope! Technically used so can't be sold as new but essentially new.
Again depends on the vendor and if I can afford if a part or two is
missing (SATA cable was supposed to be included type of thing).

KM> Note that despite listing all sorts of electronic junk (some at
KM> fair prices, some at ridiculous prices, like a $900 battery that
KM> goes for $50, or a server rack for $700 that's basically scrap
KM> iron) they've only got two feedbacks less than a year old.
KM> Whether this is the actual company
KM> https://berkcom.com/pages/about-us or someone piggybacking on the
KM> name and not legit? Hard to say.

I sent 'em an email and asked. So far no response.

Gee, that's strange! OTOH could be an error: "we're .NET and they're
.COM".

I might also get a little suspcious when seeing a thousand ratings at
5.0 -- _everybody_ is perfectly happy??

Haha, yep. So I mostly read the negative feedback, it's a lot
more informative.

And sometimes humourous! "I bought this for my trip to Europe and it
doesn't work!" Yeah dummy: the specs specifically said "120v" and EU is generally 230v.

KM> But I've seen probably a dozen vendor names over the years,
KM> offering this particular board for $5000ish.
So you're picking on this one seller with super-low overhead as he live
sin his parents' basement, works at the recycling facilty, snuck out
this board.... <g>

LOL, that. <g>

You're soooo mean!

KM> And that's not complete, just who I remembered off the top of my
KM> head when I took a notion to do this. Reload to return it to
KM> default order. Some of the weird entries are to force sorting
KM> since blanks don't work right.
I scanned through and say "zzz" which I figured was a placeholder. Some

Yep, cuz otherwise blank lines sort first and that's not useful
when a whole bunch of 'em would otherwise be blank.

Plus with the 'zzz' placeholder you know it's supposed to be blank.

sort utilities don't always play nice with blank fields, or like the incident I had in college doing keypunch: my cards were right (well, for this example!) but the programmer didn't put in the 'clear field' so if
Card #1 had a second address line ("Apartment 123") it would print out (correct), but if Card 2 did not have a second address line (because it
was a house) then it would print out with "Apartment 123". Computer guy said it was me, I checked and tested, then proved to him it was his error, he still said it was me. I got a meeting together with him, my boss,
his boss's secretary (a V.P.).... It did not turn out well for the
computer guy.

OOOPS!!!

He didn't get fired but he did end up with 'egg on his face'. Which was probably worse because I'm pretty sure he was vegetarian. <bah-da-bum!>

I gave him a chance by checking and testing privately before the
meeting.

> KM> What's that tool for showing all the IP addresses on the local
> KM> network?
> nc / netcat ?
> nmap -sn ?
KM> Well, not in Windows...
ipconfig /all should work for starters. ...Though the way things are phrased in the summary doesn't seem right

Only provides info for the local machine. I've tried the map
network tool and it's goofy.

arp -a ...This sounds familiar.

Not to me!

How about AARP?!

I just looked at my chart and of course I didn't put the command I used
on it. Would be the Linux option but usually can find the Windows
equivalent.

> KM> Techhole video (linked): "I'm not a production environment, I'm a
> KM> basement."
> Not all discoveries are made in formal settings!
KM> Sometimes the discovery is "The Closet is Full." <g>
..Argh! I can't recall the name of the storage company: they'll put a
metal storage container on the property. They'll also ship the
container to another site.

Pods. Looked into 'em when I moved. Storage was all done in
Seattle which meant too much risk of mold if the container isn't
perfectly airtight. Customer service was crap, tho I hear it's
since improved.

Right: "PODS" was what I was thinking. For my use I'm thinking of when
I have to move whatever I'm wanting from my Mother's house in New
Hampshire to here in Iowa, so theoretically no Seattle storage. Just
looking for something to move a bunch of stuff from there to here and
have the shipping container sit in the driveway for a week or two or
three.

The problem with shipping to another site is that you still might
need to contract with a local trucker... that wasn't included
when I checked into it.

The Fine Print!

> > Haha! A nice bit of humour with the cartoon of the strongman bending

he

> > pipe.
> KM> Just don't wrap it around yourself. <g>
> Do not wrap in something your assistants can not unwrap you out of!
KM> Hahaha nope, don't do that. Even if you're an Evil Overlord. <g>
I'm not evil, I just had a bad day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gaqHi6--U8

I think he's in love!


� BarryMartin3@ �
� @MyMetronet.NET �

... How much do dead batteries cost?
Nothing: they're free of charge.
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Hi Ky!

KM> In the early stages, only USB. But later on... Double Vision
KM> (AMD/Asus of ?2006 vintage) seems to have had basically the same
KM> flaw... USB was crappy for a long time (would only do USB1 during
KM> boot), but given a few more years for those caps to dry out,
KM> guess what, it stopped being able to write to the HD. As I
KM> discovered when I tried to install a new OS on the durn thing. It
KM> is now retired to the cannibal pot.
Mmmmmm - using the motherboard with the USB lockup issue as a NAS might
not be such a good idea in the long term. Maybe just keep it for when a MythTV Frontend needs upgrading. ...Trying to think of some project I
could use for experimenting.....

Yeah, that's the kind of job where you don't need anything but
the ability to display a picture. So long as it can do that, and
only needs to READ from the OS disk, no one cares if nothing else
works.

OK/Agree/Makes sense. I was more or less trying to make sure I wasn't overreacting and so effectively junking an otherwise good board. Use as
a NAS was 'dangerous' in my mind because of the Southbridge issue but
maybe only the USB section was failing and so not using that -- nope.

Or why Tarnish works perfectly well as a secondary
streamer, tho has become incompetent for anything else.

Hmm: I could have an 8-core MythTV Frontend!

OS arrives already installed on a removable HD so no one cares if
Tarnish can't write files correctly. Probably makes logfile
errors but doesn't matter. It still groks internet and plays
video to the screen, and that's all I require of it. If the OS
goes wonky, I just make another copy and life goes on as before.

Yup -- and Tarnish might just last another ten years and be fine as a streaming device.

KM> Once the USB problem starts, I don't think I would trust it for
KM> mission-critical anything. Definitely not for storage you rely
KM> on.
Had thought that originally (so not as a NAS) but then figured ask: if
just a problem with the USB section would have been no big deal.

Yeah, those pesky multifunction chips...

Good for compactness, not so good when things start to fail.

KM> Seems to be the case even with apps that don't really use more
KM> than one core, or not very well. It is REALLY noticeable with
KM> SeaMonkey.
Yes: I have 'suspected' several apps have no clue how to run on multiple cores - just too slow (to start/load, do a process, etc.). Oh well,
Since I haven't a clue how to even start writing something beyond script I'll be happy with waiting a second or two.

SM knows how to use multiple cores, but apparently there's a
Point of Inefficiency with fewer cores vs memory usage. Not only
does CPU usage shoot up to 100% far more often, it also
completely clogs up RAM whenever this happens.... FAR less often
on the slower quadcore than on the faster core2duo. On otherwise
identical hardware. I suppose I could swap CPUs between Cash and
Tarnish and solve the problem, but this sounds like work. <g>

It's not too much work to swap CPUs. it's the associated work that pops
up! Open the case, see dust bunny families so clean those; while you're
inside may as well do an upgrade....

> > KM> Oh, speaking therewhich, found a USB driver for DOS that works
> KM> Ugh, will have to remind me another day.
> Is today the day? I do have one or two PS/2 to USB adapters -- not the
KM> No, this has nothing to do with that. Only for USB storage
KM> devices, like flash drives.
Plugging in a thumbdrive into the PS/2 adaptor wouldn't work: data and
power lines up, but the data doens't go to the right place inside the computer.

Right-o!! Tho I suppose someone has attempted the translation...
imagine how many keystrokes you could fit on a 128GB flash
drive!!

Well let's see, IIRC on the Heathkit GR-3000 TV the remote matrix was
8x8, and I think bits not bytes, so ... a lot!!

KM> Strange facts and useless information: if possible, use PS/2 with
KM> your DOS machine. Seems MODE CON RATE=32 DELAY=1 to speed up the
KM> keyboard does not work with USB keyboards!!
My guess is the command link to convert the PS/2 instructions to what is used by the USB keyboard is missing, or maybe there is no equivalent instruction in a USB keyboard (already at 'fast'?).

Actually, because the CON thingee only controls CONSOLE ports.

Oh! The obvious!

Reminded me of when I was working at the store and one of the portable
devices lost it's programming. We were sent a floppy (it was a l-o-n-g
time ago) and cable -- plug the cable into COM1 of the computer and the
other end into the device, run programme, done. That's fine, except all
of the computers we could potentially use had a different serial port;
COM2 was the right type. (I got involved because I 'knew' computers and
was trusted not to screw things up.)

Nothing found to work, the Operations Manager and I are in the Computer
Room as there as old computer running the lighting. Nope, same wrong
port. OM gets on the phone to Support as we've run out of options, I
ask her if I can try something (figuring if I ask and get permission to
test something if I should somehow screw up I'd be in less trouble).
"Sure, go ahead" and she continues with Support who is suggesting they
make up a cable to adapt - cable's going to cost $50 or some ridiculous
price. Me: "DeeDee! I'm done with the download and it's working!"
Usedthe old DOS help command: <command> /? ==> help screen displayed,
one line was the switch to switch from default COM1 to COM2 (or any
other), so command + switch, all done! :)

Tho apparently if I wish to invest in an expensive gaming
keyboard, I could get one with the USB polling rate being
settable in hardware. https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/11/540742485413557856
/

Wow! Think how fast I could flip through those Solitaire cards when the
battery on the mouse dies! ...As you know I'm not into gaming but can appreciate for those who do. Know there's all sorts of 'tricks' like
the sponginess/firmness of the key, travel distance, suppose even
spacing.

KM> And wireless USB keyboard does not work during boot if used via
KM> KVM.
Is the KVM Switch wired or electronic? If the old wired type I'm
thinking should work but if electronic can see why it wouldn't work: the switch isn't sending the identification data through/in time to the computer.

Old wired type don't speak USB at all. Works fine once Windows
boots up, but not until then.

OK. I'm thinking might be more the BIOS not detecting/knowing what to
do. I've been playing a bit with a system using a wireless keyboard and
mouse (USB dongle). System boots fine, just if I want to access the
BIOS I need to plug in a USB keyboard. MY BIOS doesn't know how to talk
to the dongle; guessing maybe similar on your side.

In the olden daze I found myself with an identical pair of
motherboards, with consecutive serial numbers, where one only
worked with a P60 CPU overclocked to 66MHz, and the other only
worked with a P66 CPU underclocked to 60MHz. This made no sense,
but they insisted! (or, what buggy steaming piles those earliest
Pentium boards were...)

Maybe they were blaming the Pentiums for the "2 + 2 = 5" errors and
should have been blaming the motherboard!

I would prefer having a decent heatsink/fan combination suitable for
normal usage. Off hand I don't recall if I purchased as a CPU/cooler combination; if so that implies proper normal performance. Oh well.
..And with the new Intel-based system when I get it I will be using a heavy-duty heatsink/fan.

The last one I bought is a stock HP cooler, and didn't look like
much but had good user reviews -- it's a small heatpipe thing
with one fan, and you wouldn't think it would be adequate for an
i7 or xeon, but CPU idle temp hovers around 30C !!!

That's a nice cool idle! Taking the time to scan through reviews is
usually worthwhile: benefit from the trials and errors of others!

Big factor seems to be solid copper foot, and as much copper
elsewhere as possible.
Nickel foot looks nice but works like crap (nickel is not good at transmitting heat).

So it seems when the desired result is to move heat then a good heat
conductor works better!

I'm not into the looks of a computer so much as the action. My cases
are about as plain as possible on the outside, inside functional and
roomy, though I still lean towards the mindset of more bays is better -
I don't need to install four 250 GB HDDs any longer to get a TB of
storage!

As for the RGB fans, etc., if they'd turn red when getting too hot and
blue when cool that would be OK, but otherwise.

Whatever is profitable! ...Did see a refurbished MSI motherboard
advertised last night. Interesting - until I read the reviews: some not cleaned very well -- thermal compound residue (I could accept that) and
dust -- I could accept the dust too but sort of implying these boards
were found in a corner some place. Also bent pins and other things
making me a little scared of this particular offering.

Yeah, when you start seeing bent pins, that's scrapyard salvage.
Also, the good dealers generally do free shipping, or at worst at
cost. The scoundrels make their money on the shipping fee and
don't care if it's dead and returned.

A single report of a bent pin wouldn't have been bad but there were
several -- red warning LEDs going off! To me reasonable postage is
fine: I'm paying for it either in the price of the merchandise or
separately -- reminds me of the cartoon where "$14.95 and $1 postage"
and the shopper's mad; $15.95 + free shipping" and the shopper's all
happy. (OTOH I did pay a dollar extra for a product but saved something
like $5 for shipping -- and it was the same vendor!)

> KM> I'd grab the board first, as there's usually some flexibility in
KM> Unless you're into high-end gaming or crunching databases or the
KM> like, whatever CPU comes along will be perfectly good. The $20
KM> CPU -- yeah, it's kind of a sweet spot, because it's plentiful
KM> and not in demand by gamers, yet pretty much peak performance for
KM> that price range.
Right. My high-end gaming is Solitaire, though lately getting into Mahjongg. Database stuff is more like having the system find the file I need. My 'higher-end' need is more because I don't build a system all
that often and know the system will slowly slow down.

As the world becomes heavier and harder to carry... so basically
whatever board has the right feature set and whatever compatible
CPU is at a good price point. There is such a thing as agonizing
over the decision until it's so outdated that you have to start
over. <g>

BTDT!! At this point I'm not ready to do the switch: had put off a
bunch of stuff just because I "couldn't see" ==> wasn't wearing one
contact lens to reshape the cornea to it's natural shape in preparation
for the cataract surgery. I'm extremely nearsighted; could get around
fine, just the detailed and distance stuff was screwed up as one eye was
20/20 (with correction) and the other ...whatever "-1600" means.
(Surgery went fine; "new eyeball" has a lens of '6' and the average is
23 or 25 -- just means I'm extremely nearsighted. Seeing now close to
20/20 -- distance viewing is pretty close to 20/20 but close I'll need
to use the reading glasses more often ==> new lens doesn't adjust!

KM> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/
OK, thanks - have heard of and visited sites with Passmark data;
probably have been on CPUBenchmark.net, And LIS select the motherboard
and then the CPU to go with it, which is easier than the other way
around -- I had sort of been collecting information on the Newegg CPU offerings to get a starting point on what I wasn't overly familiar with: locked and unlocked, cores, threads. Then have clock speed and core
number and threading options and ......

Locked and unlocked is only of interest to overclockers, which is
to say gamers. Most i7 CPUs can be overclocked if the motherboard
allows it. Four cores covers any sort of everyday use; more might
be useful if you're doing video editing or running some game that
can use 'em (many still don't); same with threading options. This
all kinda falls under who cares because whatever falls on your
head will be overkill anyway. <g> Higher clock speed is
generally better than lower, but will be limited by the
motherboard's CPU support range anyway.

I'd say the only real decision is how much money you want to
invest. More money will get a newer faster board and CPU. The
price break point really is i7 vs i9. i9 would be nice for long
term but not for an extra thousand bucks.

OK - good info. I'm not into overclocking as of the opinion if one
needs to be making the system faster should have gotten somethign faster
in the first place. (There's a reason for 100% as maximum.) I wasn't
quite sure if locked vs. unlocked had some other options besides revving
the clock cycles.

And yes, faster just means I wait less. I probably won't notice any
difference between say 2.8 GHz and 3.2 GHz. And as you said, some of
what it can do is limited by the motherboard and then the programme.

Oh, here's a question: I'm running Oracle VM Virtualbox and there was
seomthing in the VM configuration about number of cores. Is this a
'virtual core' or is it using a real core? So my question is sort of if
I allocate two cores via VM/to VM are any being taken away from the
actual machine and so should be compensated for? ...Something like if I
have a six core CPU and allocate VM for two do I only have four left?

(And I used six two and four to make the example/question easier - I
hope!)

As for the thousand dollars - uh, no. I'm not even wanting to spend a thousand dollars on the entire system.

KM> For quicker compare, they also have an Everything At Once chart
KM> for various categories of CPU, more or less organized by socket
KM> and age.
KM> http://twilightasylum.com/pc/cpus.htm
Between the two sites I should be able to figure out something decent.

This one is mine, from when I was shopping for CPU upgrades on
eBay. What does it support vs what is available and how do the
benchmarks compare? Westworld's CPU support covers such a
ridiculous range that it makes a good example -- from painfully
slow to somewhat fa$$ter than I cared to invest in for an old
box.

Maybe that's why the site sounded familiar!

I could also upgrade Bullet per my chart, but requires either a
fairly pricey and rare CPU, or a modified Xeon, and either way
would max out power consumption for not much benefit. Since its
job is mostly file server and occasional backup desktop, and it
already runs hot, not worth the cost.

Sometimes it's just not worth it.

KM> I've had so many vidcard fans either go rattly or die that
KM> fanless has become a requirement if I'm paying money for it. Fact
KM> is those little fans are crap. And by the time you get up to a
KM> card with big fans, it's way more $$$ than it's worth to me.
I have mostly gone by spec and price for the video cards around here.
AFAIK all of the TVs except the most recent one only do 1080 so no need
to have a 4K-capable video card. Plus the TV stations only put out 1080
max anyway.

Next time I buy one it'll probably have to do 4k if only because
I'd like to have a better monitor, but hardly priority.

Right. Sort of like my 'rule' of when looking to buy something try to
plan ahead. I might now only need a video card doing 1080 but
eventually 4K will be the norm. I was also thinking of dual monitors
here at the computer desk. The desk prohibits because of the hutch
cubbyholes and I like/need the storage. Old monitor is mounted to the
wall and can swivel over the hutch - sometimes handy, sometimes not (as
covers up other things).

TV's HDMI input was recognized at the higher definition the video card adjusted tself to the higher resolution (probably 3840x2160): man was
the Ubuntu Desktop display tiny!!

Oh yeah, that is a problem.. Adobe CS2 suite is really stupid
about menu scaling, and Illustrator's menus almost require a
magnifying glass to even FIND them. At a mere 1920x1080. Hate to
think what they'd look like on a 4k screen! (I hear this problem
never did get fixed in the version you can buy on a CD, and now
they're subscription only. I won CS2 at a trade show.)

If teeny-tiny at 1080 they'd almost disappear at 4K!

One other problem I had with that computer/TV combination was MythTV was 'getting confused'. Forgot what the problem was but configuring the
main screen to 1080 (from probably 4K) corrected. (MythTV is
technically an overlaid window -- can shrink and see the Desktop
underneath. I'm guessing one window at "1K" and the main one at 4K
confused something.)

KM> By the time you have more USB3.x ports, the whole thing is
KM> expensive enough that there's no point in cutting corners.
Probbaly true -- not disputing, just not enough personal experience. I
do use the number of USB ports, daughtercard slots, etc., as a
guideline.

Yep... once you've bought the mansion, you don't skip on the car. <g>

<snicker> One of the technicians at the store where I work said he had
been to some of the million dollar houses here and there were empty
rooms: couldn't afford to furnish!

KM> Yeah, when the OS doesn't know how to scale icons and text...
Not sure that it couldn't, was easier to force the lower resolution.

Depends on your distro and desktop. KDE is good about letting you
set font sizes (anything you want), but rather stupid about icon
sizes (small, medium, large). I use a rather XP-like theme which
makes the window controls big enough to find... some of the
'modern look' themes wind up with controls so small you need
one-pixel accuracy to use at all.

Oh Good Grief! Off hand I don't know what the specifics are but the
icons in the Favourites Bar (to the left in Ubuntu) are about 3/8"
squares. The hide/min-max/close are about an eighth inch and about as
small as I like conveniently. Could go a little smaller if I had to.

This is old, but you get the idea... http://doomgold.com/images/linux/KDE_Screenshot_20171021_011530_fi lemanagers.jp

Oo! I kinda like the italic font for the Favourites labels. And FWIW it
loaded immediately - no 'scanning'.

> I'm not even sure if more than one station.
KM> Or the fact that I've done long stretches with no TV!
You don't know what you're missing! (Or should that be I don't know
what I'm missing?!)

Peace and quiet? :D

:) I'll admit to 'needing' some background noise: part of my 'job'
growing up was monitoring Dad's office and if the radio station went off
the air or did a sports or talk radio thing to change the station - was supposed to be relaxing music. So I'm used to music/something in the background, but do admit lately it is nice to hear quiet every so often.

KM> Now that I can positively say I've never seen. For one thing, we
KM> didn't have Prince brand spaghetti out west of the Mississippi.
KM> Creamettes for us!
Yes, I'm on the western side of the Mississippi also -- just barely:
(city) blocks, not even a mile. (Good news: live on a bluff so if Mississippi water starts lapping at my doorstep we're all in a heap of

Don't jump!

Would have to get a really good push-off as while the hill is steep it's
not that steep: "cannonballllll! <scrape-roll-ouch!>"

doo-doo!) AFAIK the Prince brand is New England. I think Creamette is
a national brand -- think I remember seeing seeing ads when I lived out there but as was living with my parents didn't need to buy food. Pretty sure have seen the dark green box out here -- usually the Hy-Vee
(grocery store chain) is cheaper so buy that.

Hy-Vee, none of that out here!

Nope, they're strictly Midwest -- "437 stores" comes to mind but that
could be something else. If that's right about four to six are in
Davenport.

Do you still have Red Owl and Piggly Wiggly?

Nope. Was in Piggly Wiggly when I visited friends in Tampa. Haven't
heard of 'Red Owl'; for some reason almost soynds like could be a
tobacco shop.

> KM> Side note: I desperately need a different form of Courier. Dark
> KM> Courier doesn't grow nicely and gets all weird, like someone
> KM> colored in all the 'windows' in the letters. Regular Courier
> KM> isn't dark enough. SeaMonkey doesn't believe Bold exists. *sigh*
> I've been using Thunderbird for e-mail and the default "Variable Width"
> font. Hmm, maybe enlarge the default size to medium or a notch larger?
> (With Thunderbird on the same configuration page as selection of the
> font in Preferences.)
KM> Nope, doesn't work. I can enlarge it, but it doesn't play nice.
KM> Gets all blotchy.
Still using that .41mm CRT huh? <gg> Font smoothing, maybe??

LOL, nope, that ain't it. The problem seems to be Seamonkey's
scaling. So I actually need a different font that I don't have to
scale up.

Well I don't think this is what you are needing but might give a hint:

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2834855&start=360

(Started on page 25 of a 36 page thread!)


This hit seemed it might be interesting but was down for maintenance:

https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/10/26/0332247

Well, "Dark Mode Craze did More Harm Than Good" was the thing that got
my interest: with Ubuntu 14.04 and probably still is there were display
mode options for something like default, high contrast, etc. High
Contrast was "holy <poop>!" to my eyes: very difficult to read because
almost burning due to too much contrast. Wondering if it's not the
scaling but something else like a contrast-type setting.

I tried Googling "Courier font enlarge gets blotchy" and nothign really looked worthwhile to check further.
OK, took out the 'Courier' in the request and closer; maybe this has a
hint? https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000557.htm

Nope, smoothing works everywhere else.

So the 25 of 36 pages article may give a clue -- I half-recall something
about smoothing.

KM> You're using the HTML editor, which I never do. Plaintext editor
KM> uses your fixed-width font. I prefer Courier for that, but can't
KM> seem to find one that's dark enough.
Quit adding water to your inkjet cartridge! OK, that just reminded me
of something: there is a way to add holes to the character to stretch
the ink. Too many/too large a hole would make the font light because
not enough ink being used. I don't know if the modification made for
the printer would affect the looks on the screen.

Yeah, some printer drivers let you use "economy mode" and print
every other dot instead of all the dots. I'm not sure monitors
have any such function. <g>

They call it 'dead pixels'! Hehehehe-clunk!




� BarryMartin3@ �
� @MyMetronet.NET �

... Senior texting: ROFL,CGU Rolling on the floor laughing, can't get up.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

...last year...

KM> Or why Tarnish works perfectly well as a secondary
KM> streamer, tho has become incompetent for anything else.

Hmm: I could have an 8-core MythTV Frontend!

Ha... and Tarnish's almost-twin Cash now has the USB disease. Only one
front port works at a time, and intermittent stalls of USB keyboard and
mouse. Probably the same two capacitors. It now has about the same
amount of hours in service, so....

I think I'll get one of those micro-solder irons from Pine64 and try to
fix it. Figure if the solder tool is pointy enough, I can hit the tiny
spot. <g>

Speaking therewhich, I just bought a used Pinephone with the real
keyboard thingee, should be here by Friday... it runs Manjaro linux with
KDE desktop, which (since I like KDE) can't be more annoying than iOS or Android. How good it actually is remains to be determined.

Meanwhile, I have learned to hate Fedora's stupid update procedure,
which is indistinguishable from that for Windows 10, and equally rude
about monopolizing the connection. (Not that I do much more with it than
let it update and swear at it. I did the manual upgrade from 32 to 34,
but it didn't even ask when it hopped from 34 to 35.) It's supposed to
be more reliable, but from what I see it invites thinking it's hung and killing it in mid-grope. With PCLinuxOS, we just do updates on the fly WHENEVER I WANT, not when the OS wants.

KM> OS arrives already installed on a removable HD so no one cares if
KM> Tarnish can't write files correctly. Probably makes logfile
KM> errors but doesn't matter. It still groks internet and plays
KM> video to the screen, and that's all I require of it. If the OS
KM> goes wonky, I just make another copy and life goes on as before.

Yup -- and Tarnish might just last another ten years and be fine as a streaming device.

Yeah, doesn't seem to have any other caps going bad. Just had it apart
all over the floor, so I checked.

KM> SM knows how to use multiple cores, but apparently there's a
KM> Point of Inefficiency with fewer cores vs memory usage. Not only
KM> does CPU usage shoot up to 100% far more often, it also
KM> completely clogs up RAM whenever this happens.... FAR less often

And figured out what the problem is: it's something really inefficient
in the way SeaMonkey writes files for my ~400 RSS subscriptions;
guessing it re-indexes each one TOO, cuz WAY worse than just Windows
writing files by itself So it stalls the system as long as it takes to
rewrite ~400 files. They're mostly around 30mb which isn't THAT damn
large...

On the New! Improved!! box, Mail is on an NVMe, which should help a lot
given it's 20x faster than spinning rust, and the whole system is quite
a lot faster too. Now if only I'd finish moving in...

KM> on the slower quadcore than on the faster core2duo. On otherwise
KM> identical hardware. I suppose I could swap CPUs between Cash and
KM> Tarnish and solve the problem, but this sounds like work. <g>

It's not too much work to swap CPUs. it's the associated work that pops
up! Open the case, see dust bunny families so clean those; while you're inside may as well do an upgrade....

<sees gutted computers all over the floor>

Noticed this problem, didja....

> My guess is the command link to convert the PS/2 instructions to what is
> used by the USB keyboard is missing, or maybe there is no equivalent
> instruction in a USB keyboard (already at 'fast'?).
KM> Actually, because the CON thingee only controls CONSOLE ports.
Oh! The obvious!

Too obvious! <g>

Reminded me of when I was working at the store and one of the portable devices lost it's programming. We were sent a floppy (it was a l-o-n-g
time ago) and cable -- plug the cable into COM1 of the computer and the
other end into the device, run programme, done. That's fine, except all
of the computers we could potentially use had a different serial port;
COM2 was the right type. (I got involved because I 'knew' computers and
was trusted not to screw things up.)

Ah yes, I remember the confusion when something wanted an odd COM port.

KM> Tho apparently if I wish to invest in an expensive gaming
KM> keyboard, I could get one with the USB polling rate being
KM> settable in hardware.
KM> https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/11/540742485413557856
KM> /

Wow! Think how fast I could flip through those Solitaire cards when the battery on the mouse dies! ...As you know I'm not into gaming but can appreciate for those who do. Know there's all sorts of 'tricks' like
the sponginess/firmness of the key, travel distance, suppose even
spacing.

LOL... I need to get a better keyboard. Need wireless cuz otherwise way
too much tripping hazard, but I'm about done with Logitech wireless,
they don't hold up well at all. And I don't like the "chiclet" keys so
many have.

KM> The last one I bought is a stock HP cooler, and didn't look like
KM> much but had good user reviews -- it's a small heatpipe thing
KM> with one fan, and you wouldn't think it would be adequate for an
KM> i7 or xeon, but CPU idle temp hovers around 30C !!!

That's a nice cool idle! Taking the time to scan through reviews is
usually worthwhile: benefit from the trials and errors of others!

Yeah. Went with it cuz it had a number of astonished reviews from real
IT types, and presented minimal fuss and bother. Was so impressed I
bought another for the other PC.

KM> Big factor seems to be solid copper foot, and as much copper
KM> elsewhere as possible.
KM> Nickel foot looks nice but works like crap (nickel is not good at
KM> transmitting heat).

So it seems when the desired result is to move heat then a good heat conductor works better!

Who knew!!

I'm not into the looks of a computer so much as the action. My cases
are about as plain as possible on the outside, inside functional and
roomy, though I still lean towards the mindset of more bays is better -
I don't need to install four 250 GB HDDs any longer to get a TB of
storage!

Yeah. Been watching Gamer's Nexus reviews of modern cases, and boy am I
glad I kept my hoarded old-style cases. Even if I don't need to install
a bunch of internal HDs anymore ... they have bays to put my hotswap
bays in (how I do boot drives nowadays) and enough room to work, and
decent ventilation, and no stupid "features" that are a waste of plastic.

In fact I think I should go by the electronics recycler and see if they
have any languishing in the back. Once they all go to scrap, there'll be
no more. Any with that stack of ten drive bays with six you can access
from the front, GIMME.

As for the RGB fans, etc., if they'd turn red when getting too hot and
blue when cool that would be OK, but otherwise.

THAT! That would actually be USEFUL! But nooo, they're just distracting blinkentrash.

> Whatever is profitable! ...Did see a refurbished MSI motherboard
> advertised last night. Interesting - until I read the reviews: some not
> cleaned very well -- thermal compound residue (I could accept that) and
> dust -- I could accept the dust too but sort of implying these boards
> were found in a corner some place. Also bent pins and other things
> making me a little scared of this particular offering.
KM> Yeah, when you start seeing bent pins, that's scrapyard salvage.
KM> Also, the good dealers generally do free shipping, or at worst at
KM> cost. The scoundrels make their money on the shipping fee and
KM> don't care if it's dead and returned.

And it turns out Newegg is actually damaging returned motherboards on
purpose so they can claim "bent pin" and not have to give you a refund. (Either that, or claiming it's so, and it's going right back on the sale listing as "open box".) When this happens even tho the box was sent back unopened, you KNOW it's an internal problem. Gamer's Nexus posted their
Bad Experience last week. Shouldna ripped off someone with a big
platform; big oops.

A single report of a bent pin wouldn't have been bad but there were
several -- red warning LEDs going off! To me reasonable postage is
fine: I'm paying for it either in the price of the merchandise or
separately -- reminds me of the cartoon where "$14.95 and $1 postage"
and the shopper's mad; $15.95 + free shipping" and the shopper's all
happy. (OTOH I did pay a dollar extra for a product but saved something
like $5 for shipping -- and it was the same vendor!)

Yeah. Charging at-cost is understandable. Using it as a profit center,
not so much.

KM> As the world becomes heavier and harder to carry... so basically
KM> whatever board has the right feature set and whatever compatible
KM> CPU is at a good price point. There is such a thing as agonizing
KM> over the decision until it's so outdated that you have to start
KM> over. <g>

BTDT!! At this point I'm not ready to do the switch: had put off a
bunch of stuff just because I "couldn't see" ==> wasn't wearing one

So what did you buy? or did you agonize too long and now they're out of
stock! <g>

And yes, faster just means I wait less. I probably won't notice any difference between say 2.8 GHz and 3.2 GHz. And as you said, some of
what it can do is limited by the motherboard and then the programme.

Even with a quad core, you notice 2.x vs 3.x with stuff like browsers. Otherwise, not so much. But once you get up into the i5/i7 range, the difference pretty much disappears, unless you're doing video rendering
or modern gaming.

My primary criteria are lots of SATA ports and lots of PCIe slots (I
don't care about NVMe slots because the PCIe-16x cards work just as
good, and you can stuff in more of 'em.) After that we'll discuss other features, which CPU, etc. (Well, not AMD. Will take one for free, won't
pay for 'em.)

Oh, here's a question: I'm running Oracle VM Virtualbox and there was seomthing in the VM configuration about number of cores. Is this a
'virtual core' or is it using a real core? So my question is sort of if
I allocate two cores via VM/to VM are any being taken away from the
actual machine and so should be compensated for? ...Something like if I
have a six core CPU and allocate VM for two do I only have four left?

Uh.... I have no idea. I don't think it monopolizes yours?
<goes off, looks around>

https://www.howtogeek.com/124796/THE-HTG-GUIDE-TO-SPEEDING-UP-YOUR-VIRTUAL-MACHINES/

More is faster, but doesn't really tell me what's LEFT. How about this?

https://www.altaro.com/hyper-v/hyper-v-virtual-cpus-explained/
===
But Can’t I Assign More Total vCPUs to all VMs than Physical Cores?

Yes, the total number of vCPUs across all virtual machines can exceed
the number of physical cores in the host. It’s no different than the
fact that I’ve got 40+ processes “running” on my dual-core laptop right now. I can only run two threads at a time, but I will always far more
than two threads scheduled. Windows has been doing this for a very long
time now, and Windows is so good at it (usually) that most people never
see a need to think through what’s going on. Your VMs (supervisors) will bubble up threads to run and and Hyper-V (hypervisor) will schedule them
the way (mostly) that Windows has been scheduling them ever since it
outgrew cooperative scheduling in Windows 3.x.
===

So apparently a "CPU" to a VM is just a process. So no relation to
actual cores, other than you can't set it to more than the hardware
actually has (cuz obviously it wouldn't know how to do that).


I'm still wondering how the heck Fireball is seeing wifi (like from
passing cars) when it's not supposed to have a wifi chip. Windows
doesn't think it has one. Linux doesn't see one. WTF. I've never seen
that unless the device runs entirely on wifi, but it's on the wired network.

As for the thousand dollars - uh, no. I'm not even wanting to spend a thousand dollars on the entire system.

Lucky you, now just the vidcard costs that much!

> I have mostly gone by spec and price for the video cards around here.
> AFAIK all of the TVs except the most recent one only do 1080 so no need
> to have a 4K-capable video card. Plus the TV stations only put out 1080
> max anyway.
KM> Next time I buy one it'll probably have to do 4k if only because
KM> I'd like to have a better monitor, but hardly priority.

Right. Sort of like my 'rule' of when looking to buy something try to
plan ahead. I might now only need a video card doing 1080 but
eventually 4K will be the norm. I was also thinking of dual monitors
here at the computer desk. The desk prohibits because of the hutch cubbyholes and I like/need the storage. Old monitor is mounted to the
wall and can swivel over the hutch - sometimes handy, sometimes not (as covers up other things).

Yeah. Been looking for a better vidcard for Silver, because the old one
just can't keep up with the new hardware, and stalls videos. How good do
I want to go? Er, well, fifty bucks worth. And not NVidia if I can help
it, cuz stupid driver tricks. Also stupid chip tricks; turns out the
GT730 doesn't exist, it's a GT400 with new markings, so about half as
fast as it's supposed to be.

> TV's HDMI input was recognized at the higher definition the video card
> adjusted tself to the higher resolution (probably 3840x2160): man was
> the Ubuntu Desktop display tiny!!
KM> Oh yeah, that is a problem.. Adobe CS2 suite is really stupid
KM> about menu scaling, and Illustrator's menus almost require a
KM> magnifying glass to even FIND them. At a mere 1920x1080. Hate to
KM> think what they'd look like on a 4k screen! (I hear this problem
KM> never did get fixed in the version you can buy on a CD, and now
KM> they're subscription only. I won CS2 at a trade show.)

If teeny-tiny at 1080 they'd almost disappear at 4K!

Did a fly speck on my screen??

One other problem I had with that computer/TV combination was MythTV was 'getting confused'. Forgot what the problem was but configuring the
main screen to 1080 (from probably 4K) corrected. (MythTV is
technically an overlaid window -- can shrink and see the Desktop
underneath. I'm guessing one window at "1K" and the main one at 4K
confused something.)

There's also a mess between DVI-D and DVI-I... latter maxes at 1600x1200
if it's converted to analog, or something like that. I may have 'em
backwards. I'm so confused. <g>

KM> Yep... once you've bought the mansion, you don't skip on the car. <g>

<snicker> One of the technicians at the store where I work said he had
been to some of the million dollar houses here and there were empty
rooms: couldn't afford to furnish!

Freecycle, me lads, Freecycle!!

KM> 'modern look' themes wind up with controls so small you need
KM> one-pixel accuracy to use at all.

Oh Good Grief! Off hand I don't know what the specifics are but the
icons in the Favourites Bar (to the left in Ubuntu) are about 3/8"
squares. The hide/min-max/close are about an eighth inch and about as
small as I like conveniently. Could go a little smaller if I had to.

Or why I use Plastik as my window decorations. Big honkin' XP-style
controls. I don't care if it looks cloddy, it's FUNCTIONAL.

What my current KDE desktop looks like... http://doomgold.com/images/linux/KDE_Screenshot_20220106_170651%20-%20LibreOffice.png

and with my WinXP VM... http://doomgold.com/images/linux/KDE_Screenshot_20211229_152949%20-%20XP%20on%20VBox.png

> > I'm not even sure if more than one station.
> KM> Or the fact that I've done long stretches with no TV!
> You don't know what you're missing! (Or should that be I don't know
> what I'm missing?!)
KM> Peace and quiet? :D

:) I'll admit to 'needing' some background noise: part of my 'job'
growing up was monitoring Dad's office and if the radio station went off
the air or did a sports or talk radio thing to change the station - was supposed to be relaxing music. So I'm used to music/something in the background, but do admit lately it is nice to hear quiet every so often.

Heh... for background "fill up the cracks in my brain" I use industrial
(harsh electronic music) ... can't understand a word they say but it
works great. I think this goes to the station I'm currently using... my preferred ones all died.

http://78.47.146.188:8000/mp3

> Yes, I'm on the western side of the Mississippi also -- just barely:
> (city) blocks, not even a mile. (Good news: live on a bluff so if
> Mississippi water starts lapping at my doorstep we're all in a heap of
KM> Don't jump!

Would have to get a really good push-off as while the hill is steep it's
not that steep: "cannonballllll! <scrape-roll-ouch!>"

Barry! why are you down there in the mud??

This hit seemed it might be interesting but was down for maintenance:

https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/10/26/0332247

You may know someone in the comments. <g>

Well, "Dark Mode Craze did More Harm Than Good" was the thing that got
my interest: with Ubuntu 14.04 and probably still is there were display
mode options for something like default, high contrast, etc. High
Contrast was "holy <poop>!" to my eyes: very difficult to read because
almost burning due to too much contrast. Wondering if it's not the
scaling but something else like a contrast-type setting.

"High Contrast" is usually awful. Glare white on black is not better
than black on glare white. Just let me set my own damn colors and we
wouldn't be having this discussion!!

.. Senior texting: ROFL,CGU Rolling on the floor laughing, can't get up.

I've fallen and I can't.... fancy meeting you here!!
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Hi Ky!

Ha... and Tarnish's almost-twin Cash now has the USB disease.
Only one front port works at a time, and intermittent stalls of
USB keyboard and mouse. Probably the same two capacitors. It now
has about the same amount of hours in service, so....

I'm vaguely recalling we had talked about replacing burst capacitors, so
if it worked once and this computer is essentially the same just might
work again.

I think I'll get one of those micro-solder irons from Pine64 and
try to fix it. Figure if the solder tool is pointy enough, I can
hit the tiny spot. <g>

As long as you don't hit a bunch of other points at the same time! Just
make sure you're comfortable and your hand is well-supported. The big
problem might be the kickback of the solder sucker.

Speaking therewhich, I just bought a used Pinephone with the real
keyboard thingee, should be here by Friday... it runs Manjaro
linux with KDE desktop, which (since I like KDE) can't be more
annoying than iOS or Android. How good it actually is remains to
be determined.

I hadn't heard of them but look to be pretty good. One of the potential problems would be since it isn't running Apple's nor Android OS could be
a bit of a problem downloading applications, but since Android is a form
of Linux would seem that should have some commonality. And quite sure PinePhone has something worked out as they're not going to have a phone
as just a phone: people want their appointment calendars!

Meanwhile, I have learned to hate Fedora's stupid update
procedure, which is indistinguishable from that for Windows 10,
and equally rude about monopolizing the connection. (Not that I
do much more with it than let it update and swear at it. I did
the manual upgrade from 32 to 34, but it didn't even ask when it
hopped from 34 to 35.) It's supposed to be more reliable, but
from what I see it invites thinking it's hung and killing it in
mid-grope. With PCLinuxOS, we just do updates on the fly WHENEVER
I WANT, not when the OS wants.

Haven't heard of that issue but then I'm paying more attention to Ubuntu
and Buster/Bullseye (Raspberry Pi's OSs) ... As an experiment I did
update one older computer here from Ubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 -- warnings of
"are you sure", "may take several hours", etc. Think it took barely an
hour (surprised at how short a time) and didn't notice any slowdown much
less monopolizing of the connection,

KM> OS arrives already installed on a removable HD so no one cares if
KM> Tarnish can't write files correctly. Probably makes logfile
KM> errors but doesn't matter. It still groks internet and plays
KM> video to the screen, and that's all I require of it. If the OS
KM> goes wonky, I just make another copy and life goes on as before.
Yup -- and Tarnish might just last another ten years and be fine as a streaming device.

Yeah, doesn't seem to have any other caps going bad. Just had it
apart all over the floor, so I checked.

Find any spare parts after reassembly? <g> As none of the other
capacitors seemed to be failing then perhaps the replacement of those
few will be all that is needed for another ten years of entertaining you.
The worst that can happen is a Beeg Schpark from a solder bridge.
...Speaking of that, might be best when first powering up after the cap replacement into a regular wall outlet, if something did go wrong you're
not shorting out or otherwise killing off a UPS.

KM> SM knows how to use multiple cores, but apparently there's a
KM> Point of Inefficiency with fewer cores vs memory usage. Not only
KM> does CPU usage shoot up to 100% far more often, it also
KM> completely clogs up RAM whenever this happens.... FAR less often

And figured out what the problem is: it's something really
inefficient in the way SeaMonkey writes files for my ~400 RSS subscriptions; guessing it re-indexes each one TOO, cuz WAY worse
than just Windows writing files by itself So it stalls the system
as long as it takes to rewrite ~400 files. They're mostly around
30mb which isn't THAT damn large...

No, barely medium-sized by today's standards. I'm not sure if it's
SeaMonkey being inefficient or something in the OS: half-recalling a few
posts in the MythTV forum about a similar problem; https://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/2022-January/thread.html
(I know that's a vague 'pointing in the general direction' but at least narrows it down from The Internet itself!)

On the New! Improved!! box, Mail is on an NVMe, which should help
a lot given it's 20x faster than spinning rust, and the whole
system is quite a lot faster too. Now if only I'd finish moving
in...

Yes, I've been doing some hybrid systems: OS on SSD, data on HDD. Boots
fast, processes fast. Bottleneck is probably the waiting for the
mechanical hard drive but at this point I feel safer with the data on a magnetic plate as opposed to a electric charge -- is there all that much
of a difference?!

KM> on the slower quadcore than on the faster core2duo. On otherwise
KM> identical hardware. I suppose I could swap CPUs between Cash and
KM> Tarnish and solve the problem, but this sounds like work. <g>
It's not too much work to swap CPUs. it's the associated work that pops
up! Open the case, see dust bunny families so clean those; while you're inside may as well do an upgrade....

<sees gutted computers all over the floor>
Noticed this problem, didja....

There are times when I'd rival you when I do a project here!

Reminded me of when I was working at the store and one of the portable devices lost it's programming. We were sent a floppy (it was a l-o-n-g
time ago) and cable -- plug the cable into COM1 of the computer and the other end into the device, run programme, done. That's fine, except all
of the computers we could potentially use had a different serial port;
COM2 was the right type. (I got involved because I 'knew' computers and
was trusted not to screw things up.)

Ah yes, I remember the confusion when something wanted an odd COM
port.

No, this was even: COM2, though using Linux would be odd: /dev/ttyS1.
(That joke 'bytes'!!)

KM> Tho apparently if I wish to invest in an expensive gaming
KM> keyboard, I could get one with the USB polling rate being
KM> settable in hardware.
KM> https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/11/540742485413557856
KM> /
Wow! Think how fast I could flip through those Solitaire cards when the battery on the mouse dies! ...As you know I'm not into gaming but can appreciate for those who do. Know there's all sorts of 'tricks' like
the sponginess/firmness of the key, travel distance, suppose even
spacing.

LOL... I need to get a better keyboard. Need wireless cuz
otherwise way too much tripping hazard, but I'm about done with
Logitech wireless, they don't hold up well at all. And I don't
like the "chiclet" keys so many have.

I've got a couple of Logitech mk270 -- good news is they don't interfer
with each other as two different frequencies. I did take an old label
strip I think originally intended to identify wiring harnesses, smipped
off an individual number and tagged the dongle, keyboard, and mouse --
so one set is '21' and the other '22' so I don't accidentally mix.

I haven't had problems (knock on wood!) and one has been in constant use
as it is used by the MythTV Frontend where we usually watch TV.

We have another Logitech: K400r and works fine but I'm not a fan of the keyboard: too squished or something, keys themselves have an odd 'feel'
-- maybe not enough travel? Has a touchpad to the right (which is
probably why the keyboard seems squished) -- again works fine, just 'not
a fan' and prefer using the wireless mouse I added.

KM> The last one I bought is a stock HP cooler, and didn't look like
KM> much but had good user reviews -- it's a small heatpipe thing
KM> with one fan, and you wouldn't think it would be adequate for an
KM> i7 or xeon, but CPU idle temp hovers around 30C !!!
That's a nice cool idle! Taking the time to scan through reviews is
usually worthwhile: benefit from the trials and errors of others!

Yeah. Went with it cuz it had a number of astonished reviews from
real IT types, and presented minimal fuss and bother. Was so
impressed I bought another for the other PC.

Yup: I find it worth the time to scroll through the reviews: sometimes verifies is a good choice, sometimes one finds a better option. Some-
times mention of good but wish had this feature, etc. And of course
there are those clueless questions which are good for a laugh.

I'm not into the looks of a computer so much as the action. My cases
are about as plain as possible on the outside, inside functional and
roomy, though I still lean towards the mindset of more bays is better -
I don't need to install four 250 GB HDDs any longer to get a TB of
storage!

Yeah. Been watching Gamer's Nexus reviews of modern cases, and
boy am I glad I kept my hoarded old-style cases. Even if I don't
need to install a bunch of internal HDs anymore ... they have
bays to put my hotswap bays in (how I do boot drives nowadays)
and enough room to work, and decent ventilation, and no stupid
"features" that are a waste of plastic.

A long time ago I had one computer case with a 'trap door' to hold a
boot disk -- made sense as didn't have to go looking for it should one
need it.

In fact I think I should go by the electronics recycler and see
if they have any languishing in the back. Once they all go to
scrap, there'll be no more. Any with that stack of ten drive bays
with six you can access from the front, GIMME.

Really! I've got a few computers here just in storage -- the innards
need to be updated and at this point easier to keep intact -- don't have
to store the parts I removed (some are worthwhile to keep). Have also
run into the problem where I removed a cable/wire, labeled it because it
did not have its function, and then found later the label fell off.

As for the RGB fans, etc., if they'd turn red when getting too hot and
blue when cool that would be OK, but otherwise.

THAT! That would actually be USEFUL! But nooo, they're just
distracting blinkentrash.

IMO yup. And I saw some time back a case with a built-in display. Not
the highest resolution, but decent. So the problem here is I'd have to
put the computer on the desk to see -- currently is on a short table I
built -- UPS underneath, top of tower case about even with the top of the
desk. So that means the display would be covered up by the right side
of the desk.

> Whatever is profitable! ...Did see a refurbished MSI motherboard
> advertised last night. Interesting - until I read the reviews: some not
> cleaned very well -- thermal compound residue (I could accept that) and
> dust -- I could accept the dust too but sort of implying these boards
> were found in a corner some place. Also bent pins and other things
> making me a little scared of this particular offering.
KM> Yeah, when you start seeing bent pins, that's scrapyard salvage.
KM> Also, the good dealers generally do free shipping, or at worst at
KM> cost. The scoundrels make their money on the shipping fee and
KM> don't care if it's dead and returned.

And it turns out Newegg is actually damaging returned
motherboards on purpose so they can claim "bent pin" and not have
to give you a refund. (Either that, or claiming it's so, and it's
going right back on the sale listing as "open box".) When this
happens even tho the box was sent back unopened, you KNOW it's an
internal problem. Gamer's Nexus posted their Bad Experience last
week. Shouldna ripped off someone with a big platform; big oops.

Newegg may find themselves lower and lower on my list of sources.

KM> As the world becomes heavier and harder to carry... so basically
KM> whatever board has the right feature set and whatever compatible
KM> CPU is at a good price point. There is such a thing as agonizing
KM> over the decision until it's so outdated that you have to start
KM> over. <g>
BTDT!! At this point I'm not ready to do the switch: had put off a
bunch of stuff just because I "couldn't see" ==> wasn't wearing one

So what did you buy? or did you agonize too long and now they're
out of stock! <g>

Bought a MSI Pro Z690-A DDR4 motherboard last week. Will have to get a
decent cpu cooler -- right now looks like a Noctua NH-U12S Redux --
preliminary checking seems to have high reviews. Can't use the spare
cooler I have as wrong socket fitting; not a horrible thing as can use
when upgrade the 'alternate' MythTV Backend computer -- whenever I go to
update the MythTV stuff around here I run into a semi-major issue so
starting to have a current running system, then alternate updating
system on a separate network, get the bugs worked out, then switch the
new system in.

And yes, faster just means I wait less. I probably won't notice any difference between say 2.8 GHz and 3.2 GHz. And as you said, some of
what it can do is limited by the motherboard and then the programme.

Even with a quad core, you notice 2.x vs 3.x with stuff like
browsers. Otherwise, not so much. But once you get up into the
i5/i7 range, the difference pretty much disappears, unless you're
doing video rendering or modern gaming.

Solitaire and Mahjongg count? <g> As for the new system's CPU
considering an i5 12600K or i7 12700K -- prefer the integrated graphics
then can use the built-in HDMI and DisplayPort video for the two
monitors. I don't need a super-high video resolution -- 1920x1080 is
fine. OTOH I don't want to limit myself in the future so the capability
of a little higher is a consideration.

Memory amount is another consideration. I think I have a pair of 8 GB
(so 16 GB) from when I had a bad stick and so RMA'd it. Maybe it was eventually re-installed, I don't recall. ...Will find out shortly!!

My primary criteria are lots of SATA ports and lots of PCIe slots
(I don't care about NVMe slots because the PCIe-16x cards work
just as good, and you can stuff in more of 'em.) After that we'll
discuss other features, which CPU, etc. (Well, not AMD. Will take
one for free, won't pay for 'em.)

Yup: PCIe slots for eventual updating. I tend to buy a bigger-than-
necessary system now because I don't want to discard the whole thing
when I can (hopefully) plan ahead and upgrade with a simple
daughtercard. ...The current system I'm using now is fine except for
the Southbridge issue when plugging in a USB device will sometimes lock
up.

Oh, here's a question: I'm running Oracle VM Virtualbox and there was something in the VM configuration about number of cores. Is this a
'virtual core' or is it using a real core? So my question is sort of if
I allocate two cores via VM/to VM are any being taken away from the
actual machine and so should be compensated for? ...Something like if I have a six core CPU and allocate VM for two do I only have four left?

Uh.... I have no idea. I don't think it monopolizes yours?
<goes off, looks around>

<snip>
OK, thanks -- copied for reference and will take a look later. Lately
the only thing I've done with the VM is BBSing and it's much faster than
I can type! QWK and REP transfers are almost instanteous.. What I
really need to do is work on/with the Virtual Linux machine so when I
play with options I don't have residual garbage left after removing
'cause it didn't do what I thought it would do.

So apparently a "CPU" to a VM is just a process. So no relation
to actual cores, other than you can't set it to more than the
hardware actually has (cuz obviously it wouldn't know how to do
that).

Sort of makes sense as the virtual machine only exists in the
'imagination' of the real machine.

I'm still wondering how the heck Fireball is seeing wifi (like
from passing cars) when it's not supposed to have a wifi chip.
Windows doesn't think it has one. Linux doesn't see one. WTF.
I've never seen that unless the device runs entirely on wifi, but
it's on the wired network.

Maybe somehow sneaking in from a device with WiFi??

As for the thousand dollars - uh, no. I'm not even wanting to spend a thousand dollars on the entire system.

Lucky you, now just the vidcard costs that much!

I know! Some add-on parts cost more than what I paid for the computer!
I suppose if I was into movies the hardware needed for 4K would be
worthwhile. In the meantime Jeopardy! on Channel 6_1 at 1080p is all I
need! (And the current College Championship is on 8_1 at 720p.
...Huh: was checking something and saw where Hoda Kotb (Today show
anchor) was a reporter on WQAD (8_1) in Moline, Illinois, from 1988 to
1989. I don't remember her, but then usually watch news on Channel 6.
...Not recalling the guy's name right now but one of their sportscasters recently was hired to anchor on one the national sports networks.

> I have mostly gone by spec and price for the video cards around here.
> AFAIK all of the TVs except the most recent one only do 1080 so no need
> to have a 4K-capable video card. Plus the TV stations only put out 1080
> max anyway.
KM> Next time I buy one it'll probably have to do 4k if only because
KM> I'd like to have a better monitor, but hardly priority.
Right. Sort of like my 'rule' of when looking to buy something try to
plan ahead. I might now only need a video card doing 1080 but
eventually 4K will be the norm. I was also thinking of dual monitors
here at the computer desk. The desk prohibits because of the hutch cubbyholes and I like/need the storage. Old monitor is mounted to the
wall and can swivel over the hutch - sometimes handy, sometimes not (as covers up other things).

Yeah. Been looking for a better vidcard for Silver, because the
old one just can't keep up with the new hardware, and stalls
videos. How good do I want to go? Er, well, fifty bucks worth.
And not NVidia if I can help it, cuz stupid driver tricks. Also
stupid chip tricks; turns out the GT730 doesn't exist, it's a
GT400 with new markings, so about half as fast as it's supposed
to be.

nVidea (however their capitalization is) has pulled a few not-so-nice
tricks. Updated my (old) Lenovo laptop to Ubuntu 20.04, the nVidea
driver which worked fine with 18.04 no longer works. Default driver for
you!

> TV's HDMI input was recognized at the higher definition the video card
> adjusted tself to the higher resolution (probably 3840x2160): man was
> the Ubuntu Desktop display tiny!!
KM> Oh yeah, that is a problem.. Adobe CS2 suite is really stupid
KM> about menu scaling, and Illustrator's menus almost require a
KM> magnifying glass to even FIND them. At a mere 1920x1080. Hate to
KM> think what they'd look like on a 4k screen! (I hear this problem
KM> never did get fixed in the version you can buy on a CD, and now
KM> they're subscription only. I won CS2 at a trade show.)
If teeny-tiny at 1080 they'd almost disappear at 4K!

Did a fly speck on my screen??

No but a gnat did!

One other problem I had with that computer/TV combination was MythTV was 'getting confused'. Forgot what the problem was but configuring the
main screen to 1080 (from probably 4K) corrected. (MythTV is
technically an overlaid window -- can shrink and see the Desktop
underneath. I'm guessing one window at "1K" and the main one at 4K
confused something.)

There's also a mess between DVI-D and DVI-I... latter maxes at
1600x1200 if it's converted to analog, or something like that. I
may have 'em backwards. I'm so confused. <g>

My work here is done! <ggg>

Let's see: pull the cheat sheet from the box I have the spare video
cables in....

DVI-I digital and analog, digital may be single or dual link.
DVI-D digital only, single or dual link.
DVI-A analog only

Single-link DVI: up to 1920 x 1200 @ 60 Hz
Dual-link DVI: up to 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

Looks like there are five different variations of the cable connectors(!).

KM> 'modern look' themes wind up with controls so small you need
KM> one-pixel accuracy to use at all.
Oh Good Grief! Off hand I don't know what the specifics are but the
icons in the Favourites Bar (to the left in Ubuntu) are about 3/8"
squares. The hide/min-max/close are about an eighth inch and about as
small as I like conveniently. Could go a little smaller if I had to.

Or why I use Plastik as my window decorations. Big honkin'
XP-style controls. I don't care if it looks cloddy, it's
FUNCTIONAL.

Yup, there are times when ease and functionality is more important than beauty. I also tend to go for a plainer Desktop so the icons on the
Desktop show up.

> > I'm not even sure if more than one station.
> KM> Or the fact that I've done long stretches with no TV!
> You don't know what you're missing! (Or should that be I don't know
> what I'm missing?!)
KM> Peace and quiet? :D
:) I'll admit to 'needing' some background noise: part of my 'job'
growing up was monitoring Dad's office and if the radio station went off
the air or did a sports or talk radio thing to change the station - was supposed to be relaxing music. So I'm used to music/something in the background, but do admit lately it is nice to hear quiet every so often.

Heh... for background "fill up the cracks in my brain" I use
industrial (harsh electronic music) ... can't understand a word
they say but it works great. I think this goes to the station I'm currently using... my preferred ones all died. http://78.47.146.188:8000/mp3

Well that station/site wouldn't work for me but then you're not me! :) ...Sort of reminds me some time back I was wandering through my Pandora preferences and there was a page where other members could approve/dis- approve of my station. I did have several indicating they didn't like
my taste in music -- do I care? Nope! ...And the whole purpose of
Pandora is to have the music the subscriber likes and filter out what
doesn't like. <shrug>

https://youtu.be/a0YRaobNDuw
And then my station also has Nickelback and Lord Huron.

> Yes, I'm on the western side of the Mississippi also -- just barely:
> (city) blocks, not even a mile. (Good news: live on a bluff so if
> Mississippi water starts lapping at my doorstep we're all in a heap of
KM> Don't jump!
Would have to get a really good push-off as while the hill is steep it's
not that steep: "cannonballllll! <scrape-roll-ouch!>"

Barry! why are you down there in the mud??

Slipped on the ice! With the leaves off the trees can see the top
portion of the bridges arches from my window up here. For some reason
seems only the upriver span is lit up (has a purplish-blue glow of the
white arch). Both spans have the navigation lights blinking.

"High Contrast" is usually awful. Glare white on black is not
better than black on glare white. Just let me set my own damn
colors and we wouldn't be having this discussion!!

A few years back I did experiment with high contrast, etc., settings --
I'm "tint blind" so the colours I see aren't always what others see.
High contrast almost hurt!

.. Senior texting: ROFL,CGU Rolling on the floor laughing, can't get up.

I've fallen and I can't.... fancy meeting you here!!

When did you get in town? (Sloppy reference to the sliding down the
bluff a few paragraphs ago.)



� BarryMartin3@ �
� @MyMetronet.NET �

... I don't know where I'm going but I don't want to be late -- Tom Selleck --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
� wcECHO 4.2 � ILink: The Safe BBS � Bettendorf, IA

--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
* Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1)

BARRY MARTIN wrote:

KM> Ha... and Tarnish's almost-twin Cash now has the USB disease.
KM> Only one front port works at a time, and intermittent stalls of
KM> USB keyboard and mouse. Probably the same two capacitors. It now
KM> has about the same amount of hours in service, so....

I'm vaguely recalling we had talked about replacing burst capacitors, so
if it worked once and this computer is essentially the same just might
work again.

Well, it should, given the whole rest of both boards work. Only USB went
over the hills and gone, and both the same way... intermittent, then
only when it feels like it... expecting Cash's USB to quit Any Minute
Now. Well, maybe the impetus to finish moving into Silver?

KM> I think I'll get one of those micro-solder irons from Pine64 and
KM> try to fix it. Figure if the solder tool is pointy enough, I can
KM> hit the tiny spot. <g>

As long as you don't hit a bunch of other points at the same time! Just
make sure you're comfortable and your hand is well-supported. The big problem might be the kickback of the solder sucker.

No sucker, just a very fine point, low power (it's USB-charged and
battery powered, if that tells you how low). Designed for this sort of
thing. Also I have a fine point soldering iron but it might get too hot.

KM> Speaking therewhich, I just bought a used Pinephone with the real
KM> keyboard thingee, should be here by Friday... it runs Manjaro
KM> linux with KDE desktop, which (since I like KDE) can't be more
KM> annoying than iOS or Android. How good it actually is remains to
KM> be determined.

Is arrived. The hardware is relatively slow, tho seems solid. It's
basically a midrange RPi-clone with a phone modem in a nice case.
Big-ass battery that held up well under hours of fiddling and wifi. The keyboard is quite nice for a tiny unit. My only real complaint is the
lack of a way to disable the onscreen keyboard, which gets in the way.
How it will work as a phone is a different question (apparently it's
only natively compatible with T-Mobile, tho can be fooled into AT&T with
a SIM activated in another device), but as a micro-portable, pretty
good. The speaker is excellent.

I have a 20 year old Windows phone that I love as a micro-portable (and
the battery still holds a good charge!), and it too has a real keyboard (albeit as small as the phone) tho by the time it came to me, being only
2G, it was long-since obsolete as a phone. But as a tiny WinXP device,
it works great.

Anyway, first thing I discovered is that "Index" (default file manager)
isn't very good, so I installed Dolphin, same file manager I use on my everyday desktop, and that works much better, was able to import my
contacts that way. Also installed AbiWord as a small word processor (I
need to add Kate or KWord for plaintext), and Konqueror on G.P. Should
add a more standard browser, which for some reason it didn't come with,
tho all sorts of other crap is installed that I'll never use. It really
is a lot more like a micro-desktop than today's typical cellphones.

Also could stand better desktop organization; there isn't any, other
than alphabetical, and added icons don't stick.

Have not figured out how to get it to network or trade files via
bluetooth (it and the iPhone see each other but refused to get on
speaking terms). It came with the docking dongle, not sure how that
works yet. Was all practically new but manual had gone walkabout, so
I'll have to consult the wiki.

I hadn't heard of them but look to be pretty good. One of the potential problems would be since it isn't running Apple's nor Android OS could be
a bit of a problem downloading applications, but since Android is a form

Android apps won't run on linux proper. There exists an Android host
VM-like thingee, if you're desperate.

of Linux would seem that should have some commonality. And quite sure PinePhone has something worked out as they're not going to have a phone
as just a phone: people want their appointment calendars!

Well, considering numerous such apps exist on linux... main limitation
is that this is a fairly low-horsepower device. It's decidedly slow
compared to even the iPhone6s (and that's six years old). However...
versatile in different ways. Try THIS with an iPhone or an Android:

https://bitcompact.com/products/pinephone-multiboot-chip

Yes, 18-OS multiboot phone, off a micro-SD card. I ordered one. :D

KM> Meanwhile, I have learned to hate Fedora's stupid update
KM> procedure, which is indistinguishable from that for Windows 10,
KM> and equally rude about monopolizing the connection. (Not that I
KM> do much more with it than let it update and swear at it. I did
KM> the manual upgrade from 32 to 34, but it didn't even ask when it
KM> hopped from 34 to 35.) It's supposed to be more reliable, but
KM> from what I see it invites thinking it's hung and killing it in
KM> mid-grope. With PCLinuxOS, we just do updates on the fly WHENEVER
KM> I WANT, not when the OS wants.

Haven't heard of that issue but then I'm paying more attention to Ubuntu
and Buster/Bullseye (Raspberry Pi's OSs) ... As an experiment I did
update one older computer here from Ubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 -- warnings of
"are you sure", "may take several hours", etc. Think it took barely an
hour (surprised at how short a time) and didn't notice any slowdown much
less monopolizing of the connection,

The limitation is mostly your connection speed, because it downloads a
whole new monkey. Fedora took about four hours the first time. I have no
idea when it did the second update, as it did it on the sly, with no
help from me. Mind you the first one had to be done from the terminal,
so it wasn't like you could miss it.

Speaking therewhich, PCLOS has its red flag up in the systray, so there
must be updates.

KM> Yeah, doesn't seem to have any other caps going bad. Just had it
KM> apart all over the floor, so I checked.

Find any spare parts after reassembly? <g> As none of the other

Only the usual loose screws, usually rediscovered Lego-style. (Oww.)

capacitors seemed to be failing then perhaps the replacement of those
few will be all that is needed for another ten years of entertaining you.
The worst that can happen is a Beeg Schpark from a solder bridge.

That would be the worst, except for possibly burning down the house. <g>

..Speaking of that, might be best when first powering up after the cap replacement into a regular wall outlet, if something did go wrong you're
not shorting out or otherwise killing off a UPS.

Shouldn't short past its own power supply, but yeah, would be best to
test my artwork on a junker PSU attached to a surge unit.

> KM> SM knows how to use multiple cores, but apparently there's a
> KM> Point of Inefficiency with fewer cores vs memory usage. Not only
> KM> does CPU usage shoot up to 100% far more often, it also
> KM> completely clogs up RAM whenever this happens.... FAR less often
KM> And figured out what the problem is: it's something really
KM> inefficient in the way SeaMonkey writes files for my ~400 RSS
KM> subscriptions; guessing it re-indexes each one TOO, cuz WAY worse
KM> than just Windows writing files by itself So it stalls the system
KM> as long as it takes to rewrite ~400 files. They're mostly around
KM> 30mb which isn't THAT damn large...

No, barely medium-sized by today's standards. I'm not sure if it's
SeaMonkey being inefficient or something in the OS: half-recalling a few posts in the MythTV forum about a similar problem; https://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/2022-January/thread.html
(I know that's a vague 'pointing in the general direction' but at least narrows it down from The Internet itself!)

30 pages later... that's a little too vague. I think it's basically
Mozilla's crappy file handling, which has been a problem since day one,
but became evident again due to the sheer volume. It does a manual copy, update, and replace, not just a write. And that's I/O intensive, but if WordPerfect could do it with no perceptible overhead back in 1988,
surely Mozilla could do it without so much overhead on 1000x faster
hardware?? Nope... the codebase is a steaming pile, but the alternatives
are either less functional or a lot worse. I've seen six IDLE tabs in
Chrome suck up 24GB of RAM.

So not fixable without deleting most of my subs. Not that I actually
read most of 'em more than occasionally, but they're all there for some
good reason!!

KM> On the New! Improved!! box, Mail is on an NVMe, which should help
KM> a lot given it's 20x faster than spinning rust, and the whole
KM> system is quite a lot faster too. Now if only I'd finish moving
KM> in...

Yes, I've been doing some hybrid systems: OS on SSD, data on HDD. Boots fast, processes fast. Bottleneck is probably the waiting for the
mechanical hard drive but at this point I feel safer with the data on a magnetic plate as opposed to a electric charge -- is there all that much
of a difference?!

Yeah, all in all spinning rust is probably the most long-term reliable,
even with today's much-improved SSDs. Which at least don't seem to
suffer sudden-death syndrome so often anymore, at least not if you stick
to Samsung or Sandisk/WD.

Silver is a triploid, with all in hotswap bays, except the NVMe's are on
PCIe adapter cards.

SSD -- boot drive
HDD -- base data drive
HDD -- backup drive
HDD -- archival and overflow drive
SSD -- secondary data drive.
NVMe -- mail, VMs, and swap/temp
NVMe -- as yet no mission in life

Considered the size of VMs, and thought to myself... Self, wouldn't that
be a good job for the fastest storage available??

KM> <sees gutted computers all over the floor>
KM> Noticed this problem, didja....

There are times when I'd rival you when I do a project here!

LOL... parts fill the available floor space!

KM> Ah yes, I remember the confusion when something wanted an odd COM
KM> port.

No, this was even: COM2, though using Linux would be odd: /dev/ttyS1.
(That joke 'bytes'!!)

<snork>

KM> LOL... I need to get a better keyboard. Need wireless cuz
KM> otherwise way too much tripping hazard, but I'm about done with
KM> Logitech wireless, they don't hold up well at all. And I don't
KM> like the "chiclet" keys so many have.

I've got a couple of Logitech mk270 -- good news is they don't interfer

Yeah, that's what I've got. They work fine for a year or two, then the
keys start sticking and the letters wear off.

with each other as two different frequencies. I did take an old label

They're pretty good about that, yeah. Oh, there's a utility called
Solaar that can manage Logitech wireless gadgets (some of the dongles
can pair to multiple devices, or is it the other way around? whichever
way did me no good, that's all I remember). It can also tell you how
much battery is left, which is handy. Runs in the system tray and
doesn't eat much. Is likely in your repository.

strip I think originally intended to identify wiring harnesses, smipped
off an individual number and tagged the dongle, keyboard, and mouse --
so one set is '21' and the other '22' so I don't accidentally mix.

Since I have about a dozen wireless doohickeys in use (five keyboards
and mice, plus a boxful of loose mice), I've had to label them too!
There's a hollow on the bottom that just takes a small sticker. Tho I
think I'm going to take the diamond point pen to some of 'em that don't
want to keep their label.

Also glued velcro to the keyboards that don't have a dongle socket, and
to one side of the dongle plastic, so if disconnected they can be mated
up, and don't lose their only marble.

I haven't had problems (knock on wood!) and one has been in constant use
as it is used by the MythTV Frontend where we usually watch TV.

Not bad behavior, just really crap durability.

We have another Logitech: K400r and works fine but I'm not a fan of the keyboard: too squished or something, keys themselves have an odd 'feel'

Yeah, that's the other thing, they claim to be mechanical, but if this
is a mechanical keyboard I'll eat a bug. And they get squishy fairly
fast. A little squishy I don't mind, but they also get a lot of key
wobble which is why they start sticking -- the shaft gets loose, then
just a tish misaligned as the key goes down, and then it sticks.
(Silicon lube does not help.) Normally you don't see that on a wired
keyboard, even a cheap one, til it's about ready to die of old age.
These? Worn out in just a couple years.

-- maybe not enough travel? Has a touchpad to the right (which is
probably why the keyboard seems squished) -- again works fine, just 'not
a fan' and prefer using the wireless mouse I added.

I prefer a very light touch, but durability and NOT STICKING....

A long time ago I had one computer case with a 'trap door' to hold a
boot disk -- made sense as didn't have to go looking for it should one
need it.

I've switched entirely over to using hotswap bays, so mine all have trap
doors <g>

Really! I've got a few computers here just in storage -- the innards
need to be updated and at this point easier to keep intact -- don't have
to store the parts I removed (some are worthwhile to keep). Have also
run into the problem where I removed a cable/wire, labeled it because it
did not have its function, and then found later the label fell off.

Yep, some of my stashes of vintage parts are still in complete units,
because easier than keeping track!

> As for the RGB fans, etc., if they'd turn red when getting too hot and
> blue when cool that would be OK, but otherwise.
KM> THAT! That would actually be USEFUL! But nooo, they're just
KM> distracting blinkentrash.

IMO yup. And I saw some time back a case with a built-in display. Not
the highest resolution, but decent. So the problem here is I'd have to

Everything old is new again! I've seen a display that sits in a pair of
5" drive bays. It's meant for servers, for quick maintenance. Nice for headless servers, no need to go find a monitor.

KM> And it turns out Newegg is actually damaging returned
KM> motherboards on purpose so they can claim "bent pin" and not have Newegg may find themselves lower and lower on my list of sources.

They're also notorious for DOA hard drives, probably due to rough handling.

KM> So what did you buy? or did you agonize too long and now they're
KM> out of stock! <g>

Bought a MSI Pro Z690-A DDR4 motherboard last week. Will have to get a

<goes off, looks it up>
Oh, that looks like a very nice board. I've had good luck with MSI, too. Excellent choice!

decent cpu cooler -- right now looks like a Noctua NH-U12S Redux --

Dunno. I don't chase the fancy cooling solutions.

Solitaire and Mahjongg count? <g> As for the new system's CPU
considering an i5 12600K or i7 12700K -- prefer the integrated graphics
then can use the built-in HDMI and DisplayPort video for the two

Scraping by without a dedicated vidcard, which considering vidcards are presently scarce as hen's teeth and vastly overpriced, is not a bad route.

monitors. I don't need a super-high video resolution -- 1920x1080 is
fine. OTOH I don't want to limit myself in the future so the capability
of a little higher is a consideration.

Yeah, that's why I've been trying to find something a little higher up
the ladder for Silver... the EAH6450 is perfectly good for most things,
but can't keep up with decoding the higher-resolution video files... and someday I'd like to have more monitor.

1920x1080 is okay up to about 27" but beyond that it gets too grainy.

Memory amount is another consideration. I think I have a pair of 8 GB
(so 16 GB) from when I had a bad stick and so RMA'd it. Maybe it was eventually re-installed, I don't recall. ...Will find out shortly!!

More is better, for sure. I've topped out most of mine. Silver and
Fireball both have 64GB. The three Dells have 32, 32, and 24. Makes a
huge difference for browsers, being the bloated hogs they are.

daughtercard. ...The current system I'm using now is fine except for
the Southbridge issue when plugging in a USB device will sometimes lock
up.

...the Asus disease... Silver has an Asus board but it has all solid caps.

Um, this one.
https://versus.com/en/asus-p9x79-le

KM> So apparently a "CPU" to a VM is just a process. So no relation
KM> to actual cores, other than you can't set it to more than the
KM> hardware actually has (cuz obviously it wouldn't know how to do
KM> that).

Sort of makes sense as the virtual machine only exists in the
'imagination' of the real machine.

Excellent way to put it!

KM> I'm still wondering how the heck Fireball is seeing wifi (like
KM> from passing cars) when it's not supposed to have a wifi chip.
KM> Windows doesn't think it has one. Linux doesn't see one. WTF.
KM> I've never seen that unless the device runs entirely on wifi, but
KM> it's on the wired network.

Maybe somehow sneaking in from a device with WiFi??

Only thing I've ever seen do that is a cellphone that's hunting for a
wifi connection. Hours of fun if you live next to a busy highway. <g>

But random passing wifi show up in Windows "available networks".

> As for the thousand dollars - uh, no. I'm not even wanting to spend a
> thousand dollars on the entire system.
KM> Lucky you, now just the vidcard costs that much!
I know! Some add-on parts cost more than what I paid for the computer!

It's ridiculous. Used cards that should go for $15 are now $50, and so on.

I suppose if I was into movies the hardware needed for 4K would be worthwhile. In the meantime Jeopardy! on Channel 6_1 at 1080p is all I

Image editing and other artwork, would be useful there.

need! (And the current College Championship is on 8_1 at 720p.
..Huh: was checking something and saw where Hoda Kotb (Today show
anchor) was a reporter on WQAD (8_1) in Moline, Illinois, from 1988 to
1989. I don't remember her, but then usually watch news on Channel 6.
..Not recalling the guy's name right now but one of their sportscasters recently was hired to anchor on one the national sports networks.

Two from Great Falls MT wound up in Los Angeles about the same time I
did, sports and weather guys. Big boost to their careers.

nVidea (however their capitalization is) has pulled a few not-so-nice
tricks. Updated my (old) Lenovo laptop to Ubuntu 20.04, the nVidea
driver which worked fine with 18.04 no longer works. Default driver for
you!

Yeah, there's some problem with the GT720 too. Worked, then spit it back.

> If teeny-tiny at 1080 they'd almost disappear at 4K!
KM> Did a fly speck on my screen??
No but a gnat did!

Thought it looked too small for a fly...

KM> There's also a mess between DVI-D and DVI-I... latter maxes at
KM> 1600x1200 if it's converted to analog, or something like that. I
KM> may have 'em backwards. I'm so confused. <g>
My work here is done! <ggg>

Excellent?

Let's see: pull the cheat sheet from the box I have the spare video
cables in....

DVI-I digital and analog, digital may be single or dual link.
DVI-D digital only, single or dual link.

Why did I think it was the other way around?

DVI-A analog only

Single-link DVI: up to 1920 x 1200 @ 60 Hz
Dual-link DVI: up to 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

And if you convert to VGA, or if for some reason it THINKS you are,
1600x1200 max.

Looks like there are five different variations of the cable connectors(!).

My brain hurts.

KM> Or why I use Plastik as my window decorations. Big honkin'
KM> XP-style controls. I don't care if it looks cloddy, it's
KM> FUNCTIONAL.

Yup, there are times when ease and functionality is more important than beauty. I also tend to go for a plainer Desktop so the icons on the
Desktop show up.

Mine isn't exactly plain but everything is clearly visible. And part of
why I like Oxygen as a theme, it highlights what you're doing.

KM> Heh... for background "fill up the cracks in my brain" I use
KM> industrial (harsh electronic music) ... can't understand a word
KM> they say but it works great. I think this goes to the station I'm
KM> currently using... my preferred ones all died.
KM> http://78.47.146.188:8000/mp3

Well that station/site wouldn't work for me but then you're not me! :)

LOL... my younger self would be horrified by my current tastes.

..Sort of reminds me some time back I was wandering through my Pandora preferences and there was a page where other members could approve/dis- approve of my station. I did have several indicating they didn't like
my taste in music -- do I care? Nope! ...And the whole purpose of
Pandora is to have the music the subscriber likes and filter out what
doesn't like. <shrug>

If you don't like it, don't listen!

https://youtu.be/a0YRaobNDuw
And then my station also has Nickelback and Lord Huron.

Nickelback gets a lot of hate, but they're actually pretty good. Dunno
Lord Huron.

KM> Barry! why are you down there in the mud??

Slipped on the ice! With the leaves off the trees can see the top
portion of the bridges arches from my window up here. For some reason
seems only the upriver span is lit up (has a purplish-blue glow of the
white arch). Both spans have the navigation lights blinking.

Woah, cool. Pictures!

KM> "High Contrast" is usually awful. Glare white on black is not
KM> better than black on glare white. Just let me set my own damn
KM> colors and we wouldn't be having this discussion!!

A few years back I did experiment with high contrast, etc., settings --
I'm "tint blind" so the colours I see aren't always what others see.
High contrast almost hurt!

Yeah, it's that bad.

> .. Senior texting: ROFL,CGU Rolling on the floor laughing, can't get up.
KM> I've fallen and I can't.... fancy meeting you here!!

When did you get in town? (Sloppy reference to the sliding down the
bluff a few paragraphs ago.)

You're just bluffing. <g>

.. I don't know where I'm going but I don't want to be late -- Tom Selleck

I'm late, I'm late, I'm-- squirrel!
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
KM> USB to quit Any Minute Now. Well, maybe the impetus to finish
KM> moving into Silver?

Just might be a good idea to move or at least copy over. Eventually
those capacitors are going to decapitate! Fixing the board to have as a spare isn't a bad idea.

Data is all on separate drives, just pull it out of Cash and stick it in Silver (tho most is already copied over, too... duplication or backup?).
The problem is the numerous programs. Also that LibreOffice does not
like XP64 at all. (OpenOffice runs fine, tho. So does WordPerfect x6.)

I'm thinking low power and USB haven't all that much to do with the soldering: is just a power source, The soldering iron still has to get
hot enough to melt solder. And it has to be hotter than any of the components in our computers as they're not melting solder yet run off
5v.

True enough... This Pine iron has temperature control, IIRC. Just Barely Melted is the right temp. I've used a hot match head for micro solder
(wires going to a phonograph needle mount). And I have some TIX solder
here somewhere, or can order... (there's still new old stock around)
very hard but low melting point. Used to work where it was made. Ideal
for electronics or jewelry. Contains iridium, among other secret
ingredients.

As for the solder sucker I was thinking external device. They probably
have combo soldering irons/solder suckers but I bet they're expensive!!

Yeah, nice to have, but...


[Pinephone]

KM> Is arrived. The hardware is relatively slow, tho seems solid.
KM> It's basically a midrange RPi-clone with a phone modem in a nice
KM> case. Big-ass battery that held up well under hours of fiddling
KM> and wifi. The keyboard is quite nice for a tiny unit. My only
KM> real complaint is the lack of a way to disable the onscreen
KM> keyboard, which gets in the way. How it will work as a phone is a
KM> different question (apparently it's only natively compatible with
KM> T-Mobile, tho can be fooled into AT&T with a SIM activated in
KM> another device), but as a micro-portable, pretty good. The
KM> speaker is excellent.

I wonder if plugging in / connecting an external keyboard would
automatically clear the onscreen keyboard? Have seen advertised
portable keyboards which fold into three maybe four sections and then
fits in a pocket. Bluetooth connectivity?

Bluetooth connects with the XP64 box (tho not with the iPhone) but can't
move files, that times out. It has its own hardware keyboard. But still
need to figure out the docking dongle; it has USB, HDMI, and network ports.

Keyboard case doohickey: https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-pinephone-pro-keyboard-case/

It also speaks to my good little bluetooth keyboard (about half normal
size).

This is the phone part: https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-convergence-package/

Some time back I was fiddling with my old cell phone -- had to get a new
one because of its generation limitation -- thought maybe use to monitor
the cameras. Monitored fine, but the battery discharged after two or
three days even though it was plugged in.

Yeah, some devices are stupid that way (including some laptops), if the battery is no good there's no power pass-through. iPads are like that.
Which is why I have one someone gift me lying over yonder, with a
battery that only charges to 5% and runs for 27 minutes and then goes
dead, plugged in or not. But I have the battery replacement kit, now
waiting for the fiddly patience to do the job. Forgot to order that
component. <g>

What was pre-installed is probably a combination of lowest cost to
install and what the person in charged liked. As for browsers, ran

It's Manjaro linux with the KDE/Plasma desktop. So it's more or less
whatever KDE apps have already been compiled for ARM (same CPU class as
the Raspberry Pi -- under the hood this is a Rock Pi, IIRC). Some run
well, others are still iffy.

Looked in Discover (software manager) and was surprised to see Konqueror (which was abandoned, but evidently someone picked it up and it's being maintained again) ....but there it was, so... and about a dozen other browsers. Question is what's too heavy for practicality.

But linux phones are only a couple years old in the retail market, so a
long way to go yet. The most mature is the Librem; while nice, out of my
price range. (However, for $2000 you can get a Librem phone with NO
Chinese parts; worth it if you're privacy-critical, given that ALL
Chinese chips and software are to some degree compromised.)

https://itsfoss.com/librem-linux-phone/

across an artcile on browsers for the Raspberry Pi and he liked (best to worst) Puffin, Chromium, Vivaldi, Firefox, Midori, https://raspberrytips.com/best-web-browsers-raspberry-pi/ , also lists
pros and cons of each, amount of RAM used, etc.

Midori is reportedly a good choice as a bit less heavy, tho no idea how
well it works.

I installed Konqueror and it runs fine, but it runs great on ancient and extremely minimal hardware. It's a combo file manager and web browser
that looks and behaves rather like old Netscape. Quirky, but hugely
competent.

There's some mobile-only browser in the repo that I didn't recognize.

KM> Also could stand better desktop organization; there isn't any,
KM> other than alphabetical, and added icons don't stick.

That's bad! Anything like a hidden .Desktop directory?

Of course, being it's linux. I'm thinkin' the problem is that it's
Desktop View, which will hide icons. (Folder View shows 'em. Or is it
the other way around; I forget.) This is probably not to mess with.

And of course the obvious thing to do is see if one can get a manual to download. Sounds like another all-evening project ==> look for the

Found that!

manual, you'll find the specs, a support site, maybe a forum.... What I

There's a very extensive Wiki.

do is open a blank LibreOffice document, label and date it, then as I
start wandering the web copy in sites of interest along with the notes.
At least with them written down you can go back if something starts to
make sense (so that's what they meant by "sproodle".)

I just save files in one of the ten bazillion Info directories... in
this case somewhere obvious like D:\Info\Phone\Pinephone.

KM> Android apps won't run on linux proper. There exists an Android
KM> host VM-like thingee, if you're desperate.

That ought to slow things down!

Yeah, I gather it's not great.

KM> Yes, 18-OS multiboot phone, off a micro-SD card. I ordered one. :D

Heck yes! Hopefully don't get greedy with shipping costs.

Free for regular mail.

BTW, what do you do with all those extra SD to micro-SD adapters??

Stick idle micro-SD cards in 'em so they don't get lost, being they're
the size of your little fingernail and prone to go flipping off into the depths of the carpet.

Right on the connection speed. As for second update, I wonder if you
clicked (or as Fedora seems to be a bit sneaky something wasn't untic'd)
to do an update while installing? I know Ubuntu has the option, pretty

Nope. But apparently the updated Discover (software manager) does such
things more or less automagically. Didn't used to.

sure it's a user-has-to-click to do (isnt' done automatically). The
good news is usually one wants the most-current because of security and running better, but when the Internet line is solidly taken like you
said it was -- hey! I need to watch my streaming show!

Or... HEY! I need to use that computer *today*, not next week!

KM> Speaking therewhich, PCLOS has its red flag up in the systray, so
KM> there must be updates.

Hopefully they don't take all day! Here I have LivePatch on the Ubuntu

Pretty much just the download time and a couple minutes. Tho in this
case it was like 500mb worth of updates (KDE is very proactive about
such things, and it's a rolling distro, so updates continuously).

KM> Only the usual loose screws, usually rediscovered Lego-style.
KM> (Oww.)

Carpeting helps.

Not in this house... apparently the kid who liked driving nails into the
barn walls (I pulled a whole gallon worth) also liked shooting staples.
Years later I'm still finding 'em in the carpet, usually via foot-puncture.

KM> Shouldn't short past its own power supply, but yeah, would be
KM> best to test my artwork on a junker PSU attached to a surge unit.

I'm thinking along the lines of a adding a lower-rated circuit breaker.

Easier to just use a cheap surge protector. That's my standard check for
my invariably-backwards wiring. Does it pop the surge unit? swap the wires!

I'm also thinking the circuit breaker built into surge unit/backup power supplies are around 10A, should still trip before the house breaker does
but still puts an additional stress on the unit.

No idea. But wouldn't want in the loop for testing my work.

Yes, I 'noticed' several issues with Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird and
tested a few alternatives and was less satisfied, so put up with the shortcomings. I suppose part of the problem is mostly volunteer code- writers....

Oh, the paid ones at Mozilla Foundation are no better.

KM> Yeah, all in all spinning rust is probably the most long-term
KM> reliable, even with today's much-improved SSDs. Which at least
KM> don't seem to suffer sudden-death syndrome so often anymore, at
KM> least not if you stick to Samsung or Sandisk/WD.

Here I try to go with a balance between fast and safe. Restoring from a backup is fine (and a good thing to have), but if I don't need to even better. Here the 'brains' (OS) portion on a SSD and the 'file cabinet' (data) on a HDD seems to be a good balance of quickness and storage
access.

Yep, that's sensible. SSD for the OS, HDD for storage, NVMe for when
being able to fast-read a huge file is beneficial.

I haven't gotten into swapping OS on the big/Ubuntu systems. Do a sort
of swap with the Raspberry Pi's: handy to power down, remove a little
square thing, insert another, boot up and have a new/differnt device
going! Admitted not a proper hot swap.

Basically same system, only with SSD or laptop HD instead of mSD card.

KM> Considered the size of VMs, and thought to myself... Self,
KM> wouldn't that be a good job for the fastest storage available??

Ummm....a 620 TB HDD?!!!!!!

That sounds about right!

> KM> <sees gutted computers all over the floor>
> KM> Noticed this problem, didja....
> There are times when I'd rival you when I do a project here!
KM> LOL... parts fill the available floor space!
And shelf space and stuff sitting on top of other stuff!

"I'm not a production environment; I'm a basement."

> I've got a couple of Logitech mk270 -- good news is they don't interfer
KM> Yeah, that's what I've got. They work fine for a year or two,
KM> then the keys start sticking and the letters wear off.

I haven't had those problems with the Logitech wireless keyboards.
Maybe I use them less. OTOH have worn off the lettering off wired

Mine do a lot of typing.

keyboards, which I usually use at my main computer (like this one).
This keyboard is an 'iessentials' no idea where I got it. Not a bad
feel and layout/spacing, though there is a noticeable wearing away on
the left shift key and some on the Caps Lock, A, S, left Control,
spacebar and for some reason the Hot/Windows key.

A S D N M L E take the beating here.

KM> small sticker. Tho I think I'm going to take the diamond point
KM> pen to some of 'em that don't want to keep their label.

That should work too. A white label on a black keyboard/mouse
undersurface shoudl up easily while a black-on-black scratched
identifier doesn't, so maybe establish some usual place like the upper
left corner of the back? I'd also have concerns with the dongle ==>
scratch on the number breaks through the plastic covering??

Nah, it doesn't cut that deep. I've done this before when I had only two
and they kept getting mixed up.

I haven't applied a lubricant to my keyboards but can relate on the
eventual stickiness. wobbling, etc. ...Had one keyboard I used here for
a short while -- replacement for a keyboard I had worn a lot of the
lettering off. After a few weeks of trying to get accoustomed to it
threw out the 'new' keyboard as was just <poo-poo>. And I just don't

Yeah, I've had a couple experiences like that. Also with mice.

throw stuff out. Not exactly a hoarder but even a keyboard with a bad
feel is good to keep as an emergency spare. Not this one!

I have two large boxes full of hoarded wired keyboards, from when
fullsize backspace keys suddenly became extremely hard to find, and I
can't stand the half-size backspace. So every time I'd see a lonely
discarded keyboard, it came home with me. Only paid for one or two!

Right. The touchpad works fine, just for clicking to select e-mail,
etc., we couldn't get used to it. Did adjust the response, just not
quite what we wanted. Still use the touchpad for some functions, the wireless mouse for others.

I can't use a touchpad, not without wanting to hurt someone.

> Bought a MSI Pro Z690-A DDR4 motherboard last week. Will have to get a
KM> <goes off, looks it up>
KM> Oh, that looks like a very nice board. I've had good luck with
KM> MSI, too. Excellent choice!

Thank you! And you helped select: some time back you gave a short list
of manufacturers and quick comment ('good feature set', 'stay away!').
MSI and Gigabyte were at the top. I have a couple/few of Gigabyte motherboards around here and heppy with them. Almost got a Gigabyte
board for the current project when this MSI board was offered; looked
pretty good.

All else being equal, I'd go with MSI as being less influenced by the
endless beta hardware of the gaming market. I've become convinced that
they literally use gamers to beta-test hardware, so if you want stable hardware, wait til it's old hat to gamers but standard for business.

Personally I'm staying away from liquid-cooled: the potential for
leaking bothers me.

Yeah, those things do not inspire faith. Good heatpipe type cooler
should be fine.

KM> Scraping by without a dedicated vidcard, which considering
KM> vidcards are presently scarce as hen's teeth and vastly
KM> overpriced, is not a bad route.

I'm back-and-forth on that, though some of the computers around here are
old and don't have built-in graphics, or do have built-in graphics, just insufficient. I have re-used some of my video cards.

If onboard video exists and allows a decent amount of RAM, I use it and
don't bother with a vidcard.... don't see that it gains anything unless
you're doing modern gaming.

Seems like it should -- I only glanced through the Amazon listing Google found quickly. Maybe a bottleneck on the motherboard/source? One thing
I noticed here was with the old MythTV system there was smearing and/or
'cut' line about a quarter of the way down the display. Smearing: on
panning not a smooth movement, though not jerky. Cutting: as if the top
of the picture was cut off and then replaced but not quite lined up.

It's called tearing, and can be software issue or inadequate hardware.

With the new Backend those problems are gone. Frontend were
mechanically left alone, though did have to upgrade from Version 30 to
31, so a software change. (I'm thinking the Backend hardware is a lot faster, so that is the change.)

Well, there ya go!

KM> 1920x1080 is okay up to about 27" but beyond that it gets too
KM> grainy.

Hmmm: bigger (TV) screens than that here and I'm not noticing a
graininess. In fact with the new system the MythTV recordings are sharper/clearer, and quite a few were recorded on the old system.

Well, depends on where you sit and what you're doing. Resolution that
works great with a TV can be awful as a computer screen.

OK. Pretty much goes with other stuff I've read. There is also
something about (with the Linux Operating System anyway) the OS will
shove into the RAM whatever it can, though it doesn't always show up
with memory usage utilties.

So will Windows. In fact in the old days of never-enough-RAM but swap-is-way-too-slow there was a switch to make Windows preferentially
use all RAM before touching swap. I ran with swap disabled for years.
You can disable it on linux too, but modern hoggy browsers make that ... unwise.

KM> Um, this one.
KM> https://versus.com/en/asus-p9x79-le

It took me a second to figure out "8 vs 3.85": how ya get 3.85 of a
memory slot?? Average! Ohhhhh!!!

Chinglish...

> KM> I'm still wondering how the heck Fireball is seeing wifi (like
> KM> from passing cars) when it's not supposed to have a wifi chip.
> KM> Windows doesn't think it has one. Linux doesn't see one. WTF.
> KM> I've never seen that unless the device runs entirely on wifi, but
> KM> it's on the wired network.
> Maybe somehow sneaking in from a device with WiFi??
KM> Only thing I've ever seen do that is a cellphone that's hunting
KM> for a wifi connection. Hours of fun if you live next to a busy
KM> highway. <g>
KM> But random passing wifi show up in Windows "available networks".

Any mystery towers nearby? Thinking maybe a business has a private communications network but they accidentally left their WiFi open.

Nope. These are obvious, they call themselves things like Honda and
Subaru, and they show up for a minute or two as they go on by and get
seen then forgotten. (The distance they can be seen is a LOT farther
than the distance where you can get a connection.)

> KM> Lucky you, now just the vidcard costs that much!
> I know! Some add-on parts cost more than what I paid for the computer!
KM> It's ridiculous. Used cards that should go for $15 are now $50,
KM> and so on.

They might be trying to take advantage of the Supply Chain Prices. OTOH
if they try to charge too much for a few dollars more I can buy a
brand-new card. Or go some other way (new motherboard, Raspberry Pi,
etc.)

Oh, no, the $50 brand new vidcards are now $200 brand new vidcards.

KM> Yeah, there's some problem with the GT720 too. Worked, then spit
KM> it back.

To me would seem better to work with everything out there but then there
were probably those 'cigar meetings' and so 'secret' agreements to work
with one set and maybe not with another.

It's the nVidia driver being a butthead, since it's not updated for
linux more than Not Often.

KM> And if you convert to VGA, or if for some reason it THINKS you
KM> are, 1600x1200 max.

I've not used VGA in a while, though still have a VGA CRT monitor handy.
Some of the older computers booted to VGA first then HDMI/whatever, so
if they had a problem would show up in VGA but not the more modern
option.

The main KVM is VGA, so would be nice to be cooperative there... I think
the monitor does all three.

If the DVI with the single link connects to a double link
the smke gets let out - oh what a stink!

The Ballad of Barry's Hardware <g>

> KM> Heh... for background "fill up the cracks in my brain" I use
> KM> industrial (harsh electronic music) ... can't understand a word
> KM> they say but it works great. I think this goes to the station I'm
> KM> currently using... my preferred ones all died.
> KM> http://78.47.146.188:8000/mp3
> Well that station/site wouldn't work for me but then you're not me! :)
KM> LOL... my younger self would be horrified by my current tastes.

Change is good! I can't imagine you listening to Bubble Gum Rock!

Well, I do like the Raveonettes... tho I'm not sure how bubbly they are...

https://www.totallyfuzzy.net/ourtube/the-raveonettes/the-last-dance-video_5e18e9a7b.html

more
https://www.totallyfuzzy.net/ourtube/artist/The+Raveonettes/

(beware of popups, but I can't get YT to behave direct on this box...
ads forever)

KM> If you don't like it, don't listen!

That's what I figure. :) I wander various sites where they have thumbs up/down (not Facebook, but that kind of approval/disapproval rating). I
will thumbs-up my agreement, but otherwise never (or extremely rarely) disapprove: just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.

People like all sorts of crap, or it wouldn't exist. So long as I don't
have to endure it, why do I care??

Oh, I know why!

https://xkcd.com/386/

KM> Nickelback gets a lot of hate, but they're actually pretty good.
KM> Dunno Lord Huron.

As for Nickelback I'm probably liking the tracks the hardcore fans
dislike! <g> As far as my overall taste, if I like it I don't really
care what source.

I've only listened to a couple random albums cuz library, but pretty
good. Not what I'd chase after, but to listen, they're fine.

Go to https://youtu.be/zx8M5DXmH_0, though when I copied that the

It's daaaaaaark!!

camera was on a rather boring shot of the riverbank. They do move the
camera around -- aiming, not physiclaly the camera. The Iowa Department
of Transportatiuon (IDOT - not to be confused with the Illinois
Department of Transportation on the other side!) has several cameras
but last I checked were all pointing down monitoring the traffic.

We don't have much in live cams here, but lots of pictures of dark and snow.

http://rwis.mdt.mt.gov/scanweb/SWFrame.asp?Pageid=CamSummary&Units=English&Groupid=150000&Siteid=&Senid=&Wxid=&Mapid=&DisplayClass=Java&SenType=All&HEndDate=&Zoneid=&Mode=&Sprayerid=&Dvid=&CD=3%2F10%2F2006+6%3A39%3A58+AM

> KM> I've fallen and I can't.... fancy meeting you here!!
> When did you get in town? (Sloppy reference to the sliding down the
> bluff a few paragraphs ago.)
KM> You're just bluffing. <g>

Well if I go a few blocks the other way I'd go down 18th St.'s hill and
that would dead-end to a strip mall. Keep going a la the old cartoon characters through the store I'd continue into the Isle Casino - where I could bluff -- if I knew how to gamble!

"Gimme all your chips and no one gets hurt."

Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!

That trick never works!!

.. Oy, Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbi out of my hat!

LOL new one :D
� RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS � Hollywood, Ca � www.techware2k.com

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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

Now for the CPU. Looks like between an i5 12600K and i7 12700K (leaning towards the integrated graphics so can use the built-in HDMI and
DisplayPort, even though DP will have to go through an adapter for the

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-12700K-vs-Intel-Core-i5-12600K/4119vs4120

and Passmark's benchmarks,

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-12600K&id=4603 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-12700K&id=4609

The main diff being that at 190W peak, the i7 is harder to keep cool.

And some people talking about that: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1404885-i7-12700k-temperature/ https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/sp3zjw/best_air_cooler_for_an_i7_12700k/

Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or
rendering. In fact...

https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-upcoming-alder-lake-stock-cooler-gets-tested/

What looks so-so but has a copper core will outperform what looks great
but has an aluminum core.

I replaced the stock aluminum cooler on the old AMD with a solid copper
unit (not much better otherwise), and dropped base temp by 20 degrees.
� RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS � Hollywood, Ca � www.techware2k.com

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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

KM> Also that LibreOffice does not like XP64 at all. (OpenOffice runs
KM> fine, tho. So does WordPerfect x6.)

Would cloning work? I've not done it other than with Raspberry Pi's.

Nope, tried that. Also tried x64 and x86 versions and even back to 4.0,
all no joy. Either it won't run at all, or as soon as I apply any
formatting, BOOM-CRASH.

As for LibreOffice, OpenOffice uses the same format (.odt, etc.) so
sseems should at least mostly work. I do have some old files probably
under LibreOffice and when when opened under OpenOffice the sizing is sometimes too large: is like its display in 14 font but says is using
12. Data's all there.

.ODT is an invention of the devil. It's basically identical to .DOCX.
It's really a bunch of XML and stylesheets zipped up together. And if
the ZIP header gets corrupted, the document is toast; you can't just
load it into a text editor and recover it like you can with .DOC or .WPD
or any of the uncompressed document formats. I have an editing client
who lost a whole finished novel that way (I'm fairly good at extracting
stuff from buggered ZIPfiles, and all I could recover was a page
background image).

The only worse document format is Apple Pages, which double-compresses
so even if you can recover the wrapper, the contents are toast.

KM> have some TIX solder here somewhere, or can order... (there's
KM> still new old stock around) very hard but low melting point. Used
KM> to work where it was made. Ideal for electronics or jewelry.
KM> Contains iridium, among other secret ingredients.

Order it now so when it after you use it you'll put it away and find the original spool!

LOL, yeah, that's how it works!

KM> [Pinephone]
RTFM! But first to FFM! (Find the manual.) As far as not moving the

I may have to do that. <g>
I did find a couple of PDFs purporting to be manuals.

files, permissions error? On occasion I've given up and done in two
steps: create a temporary directory on the destination device, copy the files to there, then copy the files from the temporary directory to
their proper home. (These files were too large and/or too many for Sneakernet.)

Shouldn't be the issue. It stalls at about 200k which is why I think is timeout problem.

KM> Keyboard case doohickey:
KM> https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-pinephone-pro-keyboard-case/

Nice! The PinePhone must fit in the top for that price: they didn't
didn't explain it as far as I could see. Does come with a USB port for hacking! You'll like that!

Yeah, you pop the back off the phone and pop it into the case.

KM> This is the phone part:
KM> https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-convergence
KM> -package/

Looks good! And nice little dongle with the extra ports!

Yeah, now to figure out how to make it work...

KM> battery replacement kit, now waiting for the fiddly patience to
KM> do the job. Forgot to order that component. <g>

Mine's on back order!

Is THAT the problem...

> What was pre-installed is probably a combination of lowest cost to
> install and what the person in charged liked. As for browsers, ran
KM> It's Manjaro linux with the KDE/Plasma desktop. So it's more or
KM> less whatever KDE apps have already been compiled for ARM (same
KM> CPU class as the Raspberry Pi -- under the hood this is a Rock
KM> Pi, IIRC). Some run well, others are still iffy.

Yes, noted today when snooping the first link the ARM processor.
..Have it talk to a Pi! (Just because same processor or even similar
unit doesn't mean they'll work together.)

IIRC it's a RockPi under the hood... rivals, more like...

I think I sent you that information a little while ago but here's the
link: https://raspberrytips.com/best-web-browsers-raspberry-pi/

Ah yes. We have several in the repository, but haven't had brain to mess
with it yet. Today it did a big update and pretty much replaced the
whole monkey. Apparently it's a rolling distro.

KM> But linux phones are only a couple years old in the retail
KM> market, so a long way to go yet. The most mature is the Librem;
KM> while nice, out of my price range. (However, for $2000 you can
KM> get a Librem phone with NO Chinese parts; worth it if you're
KM> privacy-critical, given that ALL Chinese chips and software are
KM> to some degree compromised.)

Yes, I think it's kind of 'funny' how all of a sudden the worry about potential hacking. Heck, one of the first things I thought of when
looking for (monitoring) cameras here at the house was someone capturing
the signal. Other problem was the video data want to some external
site, seemed usually China just because that's where the unit was manufactured, and then back to me. What happens when the Internet is

I too thought that was a rather obvious concern.

out? At the time I had DSL and every so often problem with their copper lines. No/poor Internet, no video feed!

And what happens when Big Brother decides to share the link?

> across an article on browsers for the Raspberry Pi and he liked (best to
> worst) Puffin, Chromium, Vivaldi, Firefox, Midori,
> https://raspberrytips.com/best-web-browsers-raspberry-pi/ , also lists
> pros and cons of each, amount of RAM used, etc.

(Hey! look what I found! <g>)

It's following you around. <g>

KM> Midori is reportedly a good choice as a bit less heavy, tho no
KM> idea how well it works.

I remember trying it a few years ago, so on a Raspberry Pi 3 or 3B --
seems like it worked but at the time I wasn't impressed with it. For
the Pi's here I generally don't need a broswer so haven't expermented -- Chromium is good enough.

It works well enough, yeah, and has the extensions I need. Probably a
bit weighty for an ARM, unless they've really pared it down.

> That's bad! Anything like a hidden .Desktop directory?
KM> Of course, being it's linux. I'm thinkin' the problem is that
KM> it's Desktop View, which will hide icons. (Folder View shows 'em.
KM> Or is it the other way around; I forget.) This is probably not to
KM> mess with.

When's that stopped you? Just make sure to have a working backup!!

Suuuuure, when I figure that part out...

> do is open a blank LibreOffice document, label and date it, then as I
> start wandering the web copy in sites of interest along with the notes.
> At least with them written down you can go back if something starts to
> make sense (so that's what they meant by "sproodle".)
KM> I just save files in one of the ten bazillion Info directories...
KM> in this case somewhere obvious like D:\Info\Phone\Pinephone.

I think you're using D:\Info like I'm using $HOME/File Cabinet. ...I was looking to see how many subdirectoris it contained; did it the wrong way
but has 192 GB inside!

Or rather D:\ as the File Cabinet... lessee.... root directories....

!!!HollyLisle
!!Books
!Music
!Video
Adobe Official Downloads
Corel
Downloads
Drivers
Fonts
Games
Genealogy
Graphics
HW
Images
Info
Internet
KDE
Linux
Media
Microsoft Office
MSDN
MyFiles
Odds&Ends
Office
PEDIGREE
PEDIGREE and Stud Books
RECYCLER
storage
Utility
WADs

> BTW, what do you do with all those extra SD to micro-SD adapters??
KM> Stick idle micro-SD cards in 'em so they don't get lost, being
KM> they're the size of your little fingernail and prone to go
KM> flipping off into the depths of the carpet.

OK. I had bought something like 50 of the plastic holders a while back
-- stick a single microSD card in (they can hold up to 6). Cut a small
piece of paper to fit inside as a label. When working on a project will
have two or three: clone before the next major step! Will tape a note
to the outside.

Mine live in a tin can on the top shelf of the desk. Yours are obviously
more upscale!

KM> Or... HEY! I need to use that computer *today*, not next week!
Really. That's somewhat how I got started with two monitors: do an

And how I got started with two computers!!

KM> proactive about such things, and it's a rolling distro, so
KM> updates continuously).

I haven't timed the updates here: seems no more than a minute, then
generally about a minute or two extracting and installing, though some several minutes, depending on what the update is. Good news is doesn't
clog the connection -- I did sometimes notice a bit of a slowdown with
the old DSL service (7 Mbps).

Well, the diff is rolling is always up to date for every package, and
there are no system upgrades. Mostly small and often, unless KDE has
another point update, then larger. PCLOS is good about sharing the
connection. Fedora is not.

Ouch! One would think with vacuuming and probably actually looking for embedded staples at the beginning all would have been found by now.
Nope! Just like here -- not in the carpeting but outside every so often
find a nail from when the roof was done several years ago.

In the desert, nails were the major cash crop. You could find nails
literally anywhere. Not another trace of anything ever, but.. nails!

Back in the old-old days I had a small electronics work area set up in
the basement of my parents house. At the time the house had fuses -- I
put in a smaller value fuse to the workbench so (theoretically) if I
screwed up I'd just shut off my area and not a part of the house. Also
wired it so the bench area light was on the other side of my fuse: that
way still had light!

You're much fancier than I'll ever be <g>

KM> Oh, the paid ones at Mozilla Foundation are no better.
Maybe the unpaid ones use the paid portion as a base. I sometimes think
the free stuff is really us end-users beta testing for the commercial
use version.

Yep, in fact yonder are Fedora and RedHat, proof of concept.

I haven't played with NVMe's yet -- nothing seems to be all that

There's a third party driver to make 'em work with XP and Win7. Works
fine with XP64. But made Win7 throw up in ways I'd never seen before.
Win10 flags them as corrupt if it didn't format them. (That's twice. And
why Win10 never touches Silver again.)

Anyway.... the speed is impressive. About 5x that of a good SSD.

sluggish to access. "Worst" is the MythTV files: ...largest 21GB,
generally 3-5 GB. Generally a second, sometimes two, to start playing.
Never times, so maybe not as long as it sometimes think it takes.

Video playback is not real speed-sensitive. Even an old HDD suffices.
It's not reading the whole file at once, only the part it needs to fill
the buffer.

> KM> Considered the size of VMs, and thought to myself... Self,
> KM> wouldn't that be a good job for the fastest storage available??
> Ummm....a 620 TB HDD?!!!!!!
KM> That sounds about right!

Though apparently try to avoid the shingled version.

My hard drive needs reroofing!

KM> Mine do a lot of typing.

That's probably it, plus could be additional factors like how hard one
hits the keys. Plus the wireless keyboards here are used on 'secondary' computers; my main computer has always been wired. And yes, I do wear
away the wired keyboards.

Wired are better, for sure, but it's just too much crap to trip over here.

KM> A S D N M L E take the beating here.
On this keyboard the 'd' is OK, the 'n' has a noticeable wearing but the
'm' does not, which seems odd as "M" is in my surname and so typed
fairly frequently. 'L' and 'e' look intact.

It makes little sense compared to how much typing, for sure!

At one time I tried using those number strips like I used for
identifying the wireless keyboards to identify the RPi microsSD cards.
Just the right size! Also too thick: had a couple get stuck and needed
to wiggle out using needle-noise pliers (gently, on the sides!),

Ooops.... yeah, a good way to mark those has so far escaped me.

Mickey Mouse mouse (!). Worked fine except the layering to make
Mickey's features were uncomfortable and dug a little into my hand.

LOL, now I want one, just because :D

<Looking> This keyboard has a full-sized Backspace! ...Old Aspire-
branded keybaodr I using with the RPi project currently also has a full-sized BS. Handy thing about that keyboard is has a USB port to
plug the mouse in to. ...Looking at other keyboards up here: all have

Handy!

the full-sized Backspace key. ...Did use one keyboard recently and I couldn't find the Delete key. Really?! Did eventually find it: was a
big honkin' double-sized key, normal positioning in the 'center' keypad,
but LIS double-sized plus was vertical (most larger keys are horizontal- orientated).

That's...weird.

KM> I can't use a touchpad, not without wanting to hurt someone.

Guy I knew a while back used a trackball. Seemed to be a good option,

Can't use those, makes my wrist hurt.

except here if doing mostly typing (so little mousing) I'll shove the
mouse towards the back and move the keyboard over so the main part of
the keyboard is directly in front of me. With a trackball I'd probably
smack the little roller ball out and then go looking for it on the
floor!

Except it's a big roller and it lands on your toe, and...

KM> All else being equal, I'd go with MSI as being less influenced by
KM> the endless beta hardware of the gaming market. I've become
KM> convinced that they literally use gamers to beta-test hardware,
KM> so if you want stable hardware, wait til it's old hat to gamers
KM> but standard for business.

That tends to make sense. Also tends to go along with my old idea a motherboard made for gamers was going to be great for those of us who
didn't want to wait (fast file retrieval, etc.).

Gamers tend to be all bling and quick fix, and a LOT of hardware churn.
The bus speed is the same for a given spec regardless. So let them work
the bugs out and buy when it becomes a business or workstation board!

> Personally I'm staying away from liquid-cooled: the potential for
> leaking bothers me.
KM> Yeah, those things do not inspire faith. Good heatpipe type
KM> cooler should be fine.
Someone I know out in Nevada did have a liquid-cooled unit break! Vague
on the details but fortunately didn't short out anything, though the
coolant did do something to his wooden desk.

I don't know what they're using in 'em. I think I'd be inclined to mount
the guts outside the case.

KM> It's called tearing, and can be software issue or inadequate
KM> hardware.

Thought it was called 'tearing' but wasn't sure. Here the old MythTV
system had it but the new system does not. Not sure what caused the
change: the Frontends have the same hardware but have been updated to
MythTV version 31. The Backend is a completely new system:

Enough of an upgrade to fix the issue, anyway!

both in TV mode and HDMI via MythTV. Have one computer which will 'act
up' on occasion; exit to the Desktop and man is the display tiny! Not
tiny as in shrunk with black surrounding, tiny as in small -- instead of
a 1920x1080 it's something like 3840x2160 (4K), though seems like I saw
a 4,000-something when I checked. (TV's not all that high-end a one.)

"Suddenly my screen is half a mile away!!"

KM> So will Windows. In fact in the old days of never-enough-RAM but
KM> swap-is-way-too-slow there was a switch to make Windows
KM> preferentially use all RAM before touching swap. I ran with swap
KM> disabled for years. You can disable it on linux too, but modern
KM> hoggy browsers make that ... unwise.

Yes, I've seen when one could disable Swap but further reading made it
seem like not a good idea to do so. I have more than enough room on the

Mine rarely touches it, and then only cuz Chrome Hog.

hard drives (multiple computers) so don't need the extra few GBs. Plus
it seems like the Swap Drive occasionaly holds some 'valuable' data??

Nope. You should even be able to access it. 4GB should be enough, tho.

I've not investigated but sometimes seem the size of whatever is in the
Swap Drive could be something like update stuff ==> run this file next
time a reboot is done??? I've seen times when there's something in the
Swap drive and AFAICT no reason to be because the RAM isn't even half capacity. ...Just guessing.

Dunno. Only time I've ever seen it used is when Chrome is being stupid,
and then I had probably better close down and restart.

<chuckle> Actually does make sense: some motherboards have two slots,
others 4. If 50 motherboards have two slots and 50 motherboards have
four then the average is 3 slots. (This is the first time I've seen a motherboard with eight slots - I'd be checking if 8+8+8+8+8+8+8+8 could
be used to give me 64 -- cheaper to buy 8 8's than 4 16's? (That kind

8GB are about the largest before price per GB starts majorly going up.
(I get it used from any of several used-RAM dealers; dunno what new
prices are doing but they all went up last year.)

of a system would probably max out with 256 GB, maybe 512, of memory -
I doubt I'd want to spend that amount of money at once -- do a memory
upgrade every so ofetn when need the smaller RAM for another computer.)

Silver is maxed out with 64GB. Fireball also has 64GB, but being a
workstation type board can max out at 192GB. Both have 8 slots.

KM> Oh, no, the $50 brand new vidcards are now $200 brand new
KM> vidcards.

Oh - that seems more like taking excuse of the Supply Chain Issue.

And the chip shortage. There just isn't anything in the pipeline.

One thing I found with the new monitors is they are sometimes too slow
in auto-switching to capture the computer's VGA signal, or at least on booting. Was the reason I kept the CRT VGA monitor semi-handy. Might be just the older computers as I haven't used the VGA monitor in ages.

I've found they can be slow to come back from sleep. I have a couple
CRTs yet but haven't seen 'em in years!

> Change is good! I can't imagine you listening to Bubble Gum Rock!
KM> Well, I do like the Raveonettes... tho I'm not sure how bubbly
KM> they are...
I selected a semi-random video (something Love Song -- the earlier
listed were their Christmas songs) -- she reminded me of Blondie. Music wasn't!

Yeah, they're like Blondie on bad drugs. <g> "The Last Dance" came on
my little MP3 player, or I'd have never heard of 'em.

KM> People like all sorts of crap, or it wouldn't exist. So long as I
KM> don't have to endure it, why do I care??

Nope! Actually I like having other music suggested and have discovered
stuff I never knew about. Admittedly I'm not into "screaming rock" nor fall-asleep classical nor twangy country yet there are selections I do
like.

Yeah, you never know. Frex I follow a Japanese violinist... look up
Teppei Okada on Youtube. He does all sorts of weird stuff besides the
obvious. Including musical standup, funny even tho in Japanese of which
I have like two words.

There was something I read a whiule back the way to get the correct
answer was to post an incorrect one.

Always works :)

> Go to https://youtu.be/zx8M5DXmH_0, though when I copied that the
KM> It's daaaaaaark!!

<Checking> Really? It's nice and bright! ...Then it dawned on me! <g>

Is that how it works? My sundial must need recalibrating.

For some reason the OxBlue site I reference is still pointing at the riverbank/under the bridges -- do know this Spring Bettendorf is
supposed to be installing some sort of elevator so walkers and bikers on
the River Trail can get up onto the I-74 Bridge to cross to the Illinois
side (there's a pedestrian lane built into one of the bridges).

I was noticing how much flood space there is under that bridge....

Pretty! It seems they're showing as much snow as I have here: thought Montanta was supposed to be colder and snowier than I am in Iowa!

A lot drier than Iowa... and we got hardly any snow this year. We've had
about 15 inches here, total, and it's long gone. But that's not terribly unusual to get every few years. We made up for it with 106" a couple
years back.

> could bluff -- if I knew how to gamble!
KM> "Gimme all your chips and no one gets hurt."
Potato chips, tortilla chips.....

I think your cash-out is going to be not so rich!

That one isn't done on Friday nights and Saturdays. <bseg>
.. Sign of bad a computer: the only chip inside is a Dorito.

My PC is crunchy!!
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Hi Ky!

Now for the CPU. Looks like between an i5 12600K and i7 12700K (leaning

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-12700K-vs-Inte

Thanks for the links -- I'll check them out later and compare to what I
have found so far.

The main diff being that at 190W peak, the i7 is harder to keep
cool.

Well I didn't find that but did find the two are essentially the same.

Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or

I'm planning on using a much better cooler, especially after the fiasco
with the "recommended by AMD" cooler on the FX-8320 in this computer:
fine at first, then started occasionally revving fans, then mysteriously shutting down. Installed pSensor and some logging: the temperature is
what before it shuts down?!?!! Install a CoolerMaster Hypo Evo 212,
generally stays around the 100�F / 40�C mark.

https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-upcoming-alder-lake-stock-cooler-ge ts-tested/
What looks so-so but has a copper core will outperform what looks
great but has an aluminum core.

Personally I don't care too much what the inside looks like: I don't see
it unless I'm working inside. And outside I prefer plain.

I replaced the stock aluminum cooler on the old AMD with a solid
copper unit (not much better otherwise), and dropped base temp by
20 degrees.

Yup: you'd probabably see the same with a current one based on my
experience. I know it costs money to have a better cooler but seems
like it would be worth to not have the reputation tarnished with a bad recommendation. Or offer a good and better option, then recommended for
lower and higher CPU usage.



� BarryMartin3@ �
� @MyMetronet.NET �

... Useless Fact: Zebras didn't invent algebra.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
KM> The main diff being that at 190W peak, the i7 is harder to keep
KM> cool.
Well I didn't find that but did find the two are essentially the same.

Not a huge difference for everyday use, no. I usually go with last
year's CPU, then upgrade it when this year's becomes last year's.

KM> Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
KM> emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or

I'm planning on using a much better cooler, especially after the fiasco
with the "recommended by AMD" cooler on the FX-8320 in this computer:

AMD stock cookers, er, coolers have always been utter crap, all the way
back. They were marketed to overclockers who always had to replace the
stock cooler, so why put one cent more into quality than they had to?
hence the stock AMD cooler is always about three generations inadequate
for anything more strenuous than initial bootup.

fine at first, then started occasionally revving fans, then mysteriously shutting down. Installed pSensor and some logging: the temperature is
what before it shuts down?!?!! Install a CoolerMaster Hypo Evo 212, generally stays around the 100øF / 40øC mark.

ANY off-the-shelf cooler would be better than ANY stock AMD cooler.
They're intended to be trashed and replaced; see above. Aluminum and
half normal size for the CPU class, with half the fan too.

Intel's HSFs are at least adequate for everyday use, if not for heavy
gaming or overclocking. Copper core, decent fan.

KM> https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-upcoming-alder-lake-stock-cooler-ge
KM> ts-tested/
KM> What looks so-so but has a copper core will outperform what looks
KM> great but has an aluminum core.

Personally I don't care too much what the inside looks like: I don't see
it unless I'm working inside. And outside I prefer plain.

Yeah, same here. But there's a fad for swoopy-looking CPU coolers, which
IMO is just stupid. Some look like they'd put an awful lot of stress on
the mainboard, being topheavy monsters. (I'm lookin' at you, Zalman...)

.. Useless Fact: Zebras didn't invent algebra.

I needed more useless facts. <g>
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Hi Ky!

KM> Also that LibreOffice does not like XP64 at all. (OpenOffice runs
KM> fine, tho. So does WordPerfect x6.)
Would cloning work? I've not done it other than with Raspberry Pi's.

Nope, tried that. Also tried x64 and x86 versions and even back
to 4.0, all no joy. Either it won't run at all, or as soon as I
apply any formatting, BOOM-CRASH.

Looks like my Googling was better than yours:

Can LibreOffice run on Windows XP?
The latest version of open-source LibreOffice is a great suite for Linux,
Mac, or Windows users. ... Note: The 64-bit edition will not run on
Windows XP, but the 32-bit version will run on XP.

Further:

Which version of LibreOffice works with Windows XP?
And take a look at 5.4 release notes, where it's officially stated
that 5.4 is the last version to support XP/Vista.

As for LibreOffice, OpenOffice uses the same format (.odt, etc.) so
sseems should at least mostly work. I do have some old files probably
under LibreOffice and when when opened under OpenOffice the sizing is sometimes too large: is like its display in 14 font but says is using
12. Data's all there.

.ODT is an invention of the devil. It's basically identical to
.DOCX. It's really a bunch of XML and stylesheets zipped up
together. And if the ZIP header gets corrupted, the document is
toast; you can't just load it into a text editor and recover it
like you can with .DOC or .WPD or any of the uncompressed
document formats. I have an editing client who lost a whole
finished novel that way (I'm fairly good at extracting stuff from
buggered ZIPfiles, and all I could recover was a page background
image).

<anguished sound>

I don't recall having any corrupted/unrecoverable documents but have had
a few issues of not wanting to open, cancel, works the second try.
Might not have been an actual document issue as I'm recalling some isses
where the document opening was probably held up because the system was searching for external jpg's, etc. Would then get a square where the
graphic was supposed to go with the address. Since have learned and
manually copy in.

The only worse document format is Apple Pages, which
double-compresses so even if you can recover the wrapper, the
contents are toast.

All that just to save a little space on the hard drive!

KM> have some TIX solder here somewhere, or can order... (there's
KM> still new old stock around) very hard but low melting point. Used
KM> to work where it was made. Ideal for electronics or jewelry.
KM> Contains iridium, among other secret ingredients.
Order it now so when it after you use it you'll put it away and find the original spool!

LOL, yeah, that's how it works!

We almost did that with a roll of Teflon tape. Not all that expensive,
just the principle of the things, especially as had _two_ rolls here --
one bought and the other came with something plumbing we bought a while
back. Both of us could visualize the rolls: one larger, blue and white snap=together container, the other a blue spool with the white tape.
Normally kept on the shelf with the other hardware stuff (think gigantic medicine cabinet -- drawer boxes for sorted screws, bolts, nuts,
electrical, electronics parts).

Looked in the shoe box in the kitchen pantry -- maybe when we were going
to start the project something else came up and shoved them in there?
Nope. ...Maybe in the Junk Drawer? Nope.....

Casually glance around as we wander the house -- like playing Hide and
Seek. Eventually I find both spools: on my Electronics Workbench
(oops!). Sort-of tray of smaller items to be put away -- got cold down there/other more important projects and finishing up the cleaning never
got finished. And of course I had looked in that area -- several times.
Maybe they were playing Hide and Seek!

KM> [Pinephone]
RTFM! But first to FFM! (Find the manual.) As far as not moving the

I may have to do that. <g>
I did find a couple of PDFs purporting to be manuals.

"Please the batterie charge. On button push two tick. Off button push
three tcik. ..."

files, permissions error? On occasion I've given up and done in two
steps: create a temporary directory on the destination device, copy the files to there, then copy the files from the temporary directory to
their proper home. (These files were too large and/or too many for Sneakernet.)

Shouldn't be the issue. It stalls at about 200k which is why I
think is timeout problem.

Want me to try? Send the link to my Metronet account (in signature
should you have a brain fart! <g>). I might be able to send it on in a different format.

KM> Keyboard case doohickey:
KM> https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-pinephone-pro-keyboard-case/ Nice! The PinePhone must fit in the top for that price: they didn't
didn't explain it as far as I could see. Does come with a USB port for hacking! You'll like that!

Yeah, you pop the back off the phone and pop it into the case.

OK, makes sense. More leave the PinePhone semi-permanent in the
keyboard case as opposed to random use.

KM> This is the phone part:
KM> https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-convergence
KM> -package/
Looks good! And nice little dongle with the extra ports!

Yeah, now to figure out how to make it work...

Check the manual .... Oh. <smirk>

KM> battery replacement kit, now waiting for the fiddly patience to
KM> do the job. Forgot to order that component. <g>
Mine's on back order!

Is THAT the problem...

Can we blame that one on supply chain issues also?!

> What was pre-installed is probably a combination of lowest cost to
> install and what the person in charged liked. As for browsers, ran
KM> It's Manjaro linux with the KDE/Plasma desktop. So it's more or
KM> less whatever KDE apps have already been compiled for ARM (same
KM> CPU class as the Raspberry Pi -- under the hood this is a Rock
KM> Pi, IIRC). Some run well, others are still iffy.
Yes, noted today when snooping the first link the ARM processor.
..Have it talk to a Pi! (Just because same processor or even similar
unit doesn't mean they'll work together.)

IIRC it's a RockPi under the hood... rivals, more like...

Possibly: I haven't checked any of that out. For less confusion and
easier parts (hardware and software) swapping I try to keep everything
with Ubuntu or Raspberry Pi. Bad enough the new Bullseye OS for the Pi doesn't fully support the stuff that worked under Buster.

I think I sent you that information a little while ago but here's the
link: https://raspberrytips.com/best-web-browsers-raspberry-pi/

Ah yes. We have several in the repository, but haven't had brain
to mess with it yet. Today it did a big update and pretty much
replaced the whole monkey. Apparently it's a rolling distro.

Hopefully not a seven hour update like with Windows!

KM> But linux phones are only a couple years old in the retail
KM> market, so a long way to go yet. The most mature is the Librem;
KM> while nice, out of my price range. (However, for $2000 you can
KM> get a Librem phone with NO Chinese parts; worth it if you're
KM> privacy-critical, given that ALL Chinese chips and software are
KM> to some degree compromised.)
Yes, I think it's kind of 'funny' how all of a sudden the worry about potential hacking. Heck, one of the first things I thought of when
looking for (monitoring) cameras here at the house was someone capturing
the signal. Other problem was the video data want to some external
site, seemed usually China just because that's where the unit was manufactured, and then back to me. What happens when the Internet is

I too thought that was a rather obvious concern.

out? At the time I had DSL and every so often problem with their copper lines. No/poor Internet, no video feed!

And what happens when Big Brother decides to share the link?

I'm not too concerned (note: not to be interpreted as not concerned) but
more for things like accidental cross-feeds. Here the cameras are just monitoring outside, so no juicy inside displays, but other people have
cameras inside so 'surprise!'.

> across an article on browsers for the Raspberry Pi and he liked (best to
> worst) Puffin, Chromium, Vivaldi, Firefox, Midori,
> https://raspberrytips.com/best-web-browsers-raspberry-pi/ , also lists
> pros and cons of each, amount of RAM used, etc.
(Hey! look what I found! <g>)

It's following you around. <g>

Playing Hide and Go Seek?!

KM> Midori is reportedly a good choice as a bit less heavy, tho no
KM> idea how well it works.
I remember trying it a few years ago, so on a Raspberry Pi 3 or 3B --
seems like it worked but at the time I wasn't impressed with it. For
the Pi's here I generally don't need a broswer so haven't expermented -- Chromium is good enough.

It works well enough, yeah, and has the extensions I need.
Probably a bit weighty for an ARM, unless they've really pared it
down.

Maybe something you can do -- my code writing is basicly lightweight scripting.

> That's bad! Anything like a hidden .Desktop directory?
KM> Of course, being it's linux. I'm thinkin' the problem is that
KM> it's Desktop View, which will hide icons. (Folder View shows 'em.
KM> Or is it the other way around; I forget.) This is probably not to
KM> mess with.
When's that stopped you? Just make sure to have a working backup!!

Suuuuure, when I figure that part out...

Maybe be like the old joke of the secretary photocopying the floppies to
make backups?!

My guess is maybe remove the SD card and clone that on a computer.

...Well that was easy: Googled 'PinePhone Backups"

https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=11343

This one you might like better: https://forum.manjaro.org/t/whats-the-best-way-to-back-up-a-pinephone/59
924/2

Whole poop-load of other suggestions.

If using dd might be nice to see something is happening so use pv or
past few versions of Ubuntu can append: status=progress .

I think you're using D:\Info like I'm using $HOME/File Cabinet. ...I was looking to see how many subdirectoris it contained; did it the wrong way
but has 192 GB inside!

Or rather D:\ as the File Cabinet... lessee.... root
directories....
!!!HollyLisle
!!Books

<snip> Yup! I also use some 'coding' to force items to the top of the
list.

> BTW, what do you do with all those extra SD to micro-SD adapters??
KM> Stick idle micro-SD cards in 'em so they don't get lost, being
KM> they're the size of your little fingernail and prone to go
KM> flipping off into the depths of the carpet.
OK. I had bought something like 50 of the plastic holders a while back
-- stick a single microSD card in (they can hold up to 6). Cut a small piece of paper to fit inside as a label. When working on a project will have two or three: clone before the next major step! Will tape a note
to the outside.

Mine live in a tin can on the top shelf of the desk. Yours are
obviously more upscale!

Some are living in two matching (oooo!!) blue boxes with a flip-open
cover. What's even better is the coin envelopes I have just fit inside
the boxes, so the SD cards inside their plastic holders can be inside -- sometimes two or three of the same/similar (like backups for the cameras
on different IP addresses).

KM> Or... HEY! I need to use that computer *today*, not next week!
Really. That's somewhat how I got started with two monitors: do an

And how I got started with two computers!!

Spares are good! Something happens to the first one, use the second to
Google how to first the first one, order replacement parts.

KM> proactive about such things, and it's a rolling distro, so
KM> updates continuously).
I haven't timed the updates here: seems no more than a minute, then generally about a minute or two extracting and installing, though some several minutes, depending on what the update is. Good news is doesn't
clog the connection -- I did sometimes notice a bit of a slowdown with
the old DSL service (7 Mbps).

Well, the diff is rolling is always up to date for every package,
and there are no system upgrades. Mostly small and often, unless
KDE has another point update, then larger. PCLOS is good about
sharing the connection. Fedora is not.

I have -- ??. Kept current with the LivePatch option ==> automatically updates and installs in the background. Also does the System Update
ones: the "A" in the Favourites Panel with the popup. Some require a
reboot, most just a manual intervention. No idea why those couldn't be
done in the background too.

Ouch! One would think with vacuuming and probably actually looking for embedded staples at the beginning all would have been found by now.
Nope! Just like here -- not in the carpeting but outside every so often find a nail from when the roof was done several years ago.

In the desert, nails were the major cash crop. You could find
nails literally anywhere. Not another trace of anything ever,
but.. nails!

"Dry rot" of the wood the nails were holding together?! (It occurred in
the desert, where it's dry....)

Back in the old-old days I had a small electronics work area set up in
the basement of my parents house. At the time the house had fuses -- I
put in a smaller value fuse to the workbench so (theoretically) if I
screwed up I'd just shut off my area and not a part of the house. Also wired it so the bench area light was on the other side of my fuse: that
way still had light!

You're much fancier than I'll ever be <g>

Aw, thanks! We all have our specialties! Some of mine is just thinking outside the box/non-traditionally. Or "fear": Dad would have been
annoyed but understanding if I blew a house circuit; my Mother not
nearly so. Therefore if I can reduce the 'area of harm' to just myself
then Dad's impressed and my Mother thinks I'm so smart! (And no, I
wasn't cowering towards my parents, and they weren't overbearing.)

KM> Oh, the paid ones at Mozilla Foundation are no better.
Maybe the unpaid ones use the paid portion as a base. I sometimes think
the free stuff is really us end-users beta testing for the commercial
use version.

Yep, in fact yonder are Fedora and RedHat, proof of concept.

Is that the sequence? Again something I haven't really needed to get
into. My starting with Ubuntu was more based on MythTV used it back
then (Mythbuntu). LIS somewhere up there I only want to use a few
options just to make things easier on my few little Gray Matter
Thingies. Otherwise it's "so this computer uses Fedora and this
computer Ubuntu and this computer...". Bad enoug I stick labels on the keyboards so I know which one connects to which computer (especially if wireless and the keyboard's here on the desk and the computer is over
there at the other section!).

I haven't played with NVMe's yet -- nothing seems to be all that

There's a third party driver to make 'em work with XP and Win7.
Works fine with XP64. But made Win7 throw up in ways I'd never
seen before. Win10 flags them as corrupt if it didn't format
them. (That's twice. And why Win10 never touches Silver again.)

IMO that's the OS being too posessive!

Anyway.... the speed is impressive. About 5x that of a good SSD.

sluggish to access. "Worst" is the MythTV files: ...largest 21GB,
generally 3-5 GB. Generally a second, sometimes two, to start playing. Never times, so maybe not as long as it sometimes think it takes.

Video playback is not real speed-sensitive. Even an old HDD
suffices. It's not reading the whole file at once, only the part
it needs to fill the buffer.

Probably so, and it seems various video utilties do it differently.
Back a few years ago I was using a Raspberry Pi 3 (probably 3B) as a
MythTV Frontend. Connect wirelessly - stuttered; connect via Ethernet - smooth. The RPi 3(B)'s WiFi was the 2 GHz band, plus 'only' 54 Mbps,
and I think there were a few other bottlenecks. Now using an RPi 4 via
WiFi MythTV is smooth -- of course using the 5 GHz band, there are some improvements in the RPi4....

> KM> Considered the size of VMs, and thought to myself... Self,
> KM> wouldn't that be a good job for the fastest storage available??
> Ummm....a 620 TB HDD?!!!!!!
KM> That sounds about right!
Though apparently try to avoid the shingled version.

My hard drive needs reroofing!

Especially after you opened it to look at the R/W head dangling and the
arm broken off in the other!

KM> Mine do a lot of typing.
That's probably it, plus could be additional factors like how hard one
hits the keys. Plus the wireless keyboards here are used on 'secondary' computers; my main computer has always been wired. And yes, I do wear
away the wired keyboards.

Wired are better, for sure, but it's just too much crap to trip
over here.

All those wires are behind the desk, etc. Laid out neatly, somehow get tangled just sitting there.

I have had to run wires/cables across the walkway for various reasons.
Try to use a bright/contrast colour to the carpet to remind me it's
there. Overnight I'll throw a tee shirt or something over the wire --
not to protect the wire but to protect from me from tripping over it!
Big White Splotch is more noticeable than Tiny White Line!

At one time I tried using those number strips like I used for
identifying the wireless keyboards to identify the RPi microsSD cards.
Just the right size! Also too thick: had a couple get stuck and needed
to wiggle out using needle-noise pliers (gently, on the sides!),

Ooops.... yeah, a good way to mark those has so far escaped me.

I've read some people had used fingernail polish. One, none here,
though could buy some, or probably hobbyist paints. Not really that
good an option for me as somewhat colour blind.

Mickey Mouse mouse (!). Worked fine except the layering to make
Mickey's features were uncomfortable and dug a little into my hand.

LOL, now I want one, just because :D

I took a semi-quick look at Amazon: didn't see any Mickey Mouse mice but
did see some Mickey Mouse USB drives. Also saw a mousepad with Mickey
and Gang.

<Looking> This keyboard has a full-sized Backspace! ...Old Aspire-
branded keybaodr I using with the RPi project currently also has a full-sized BS. Handy thing about that keyboard is has a USB port to
plug the mouse in to. ...Looking at other keyboards up here: all have

Handy!

It is! One less USB port to use, one less cable out of the Pi.

KM> I can't use a touchpad, not without wanting to hurt someone.
Guy I knew a while back used a trackball. Seemed to be a good option,

Can't use those, makes my wrist hurt.

That's not good!

except here if doing mostly typing (so little mousing) I'll shove the
mouse towards the back and move the keyboard over so the main part of
the keyboard is directly in front of me. With a trackball I'd probably smack the little roller ball out and then go looking for it on the
floor!

Except it's a big roller and it lands on your toe, and...

Years ago I added some brackets to the back of my keyboard slide tray
shelf -- whatever it's called. Remember I said I shove my mouse to the
back and bring the keyboard over? Yup: one too many times shoved the
mouse over the edge! And there have been times when I had two keyboards
on the shelf -- so one shoved to the back and the other onto the shelf
-- oops!

KM> All else being equal, I'd go with MSI as being less influenced by
KM> the endless beta hardware of the gaming market. I've become
KM> convinced that they literally use gamers to beta-test hardware,
KM> so if you want stable hardware, wait til it's old hat to gamers
KM> but standard for business.
That tends to make sense. Also tends to go along with my old idea a motherboard made for gamers was going to be great for those of us who
didn't want to wait (fast file retrieval, etc.).

Gamers tend to be all bling and quick fix, and a LOT of hardware
churn. The bus speed is the same for a given spec regardless. So
let them work the bugs out and buy when it becomes a business or workstation board!

Works for me! I don't mind doing some beta testing but tend to prefer software over hardware.

KM> It's called tearing, and can be software issue or inadequate
KM> hardware.
Thought it was called 'tearing' but wasn't sure. Here the old MythTV
system had it but the new system does not. Not sure what caused the
change: the Frontends have the same hardware but have been updated to
MythTV version 31. The Backend is a completely new system:

Enough of an upgrade to fix the issue, anyway!

Yup! Eventually the old system (BE3 -- probably will get a new name)
will be upgraded: whatever the current LTS is, whatever the current
MythTV is (version 32 due out the end of March last I heard). Will
install a SSD for the OS -- right now combined with the same drive
holding the recordings.

both in TV mode and HDMI via MythTV. Have one computer which will 'act
up' on occasion; exit to the Desktop and man is the display tiny! Not
tiny as in shrunk with black surrounding, tiny as in small -- instead of
a 1920x1080 it's something like 3840x2160 (4K), though seems like I saw
a 4,000-something when I checked. (TV's not all that high-end a one.)

"Suddenly my screen is half a mile away!!"

That's what it seemed like! The bad news was the text size was almost
too small to read, even up close. The good news is I knew what needed
to be typed in Terminal so just blind-typed.

KM> So will Windows. In fact in the old days of never-enough-RAM but
KM> swap-is-way-too-slow there was a switch to make Windows
KM> preferentially use all RAM before touching swap. I ran with swap
KM> disabled for years. You can disable it on linux too, but modern
KM> hoggy browsers make that ... unwise.
Yes, I've seen when one could disable Swap but further reading made it
seem like not a good idea to do so. I have more than enough room on the

Mine rarely touches it, and then only cuz Chrome Hog.

Right now this computer (running Ubuntu 18.04) is using 2.0 MiB of a
32.0 GiB Swap file and 6.3 GiB of 31.3 GiB RAM. No idea why its using
any Swap; I don't I've seen it use anywhere near half the RAM. I
rebooted on the 13th (two days ago as I write this), and probably the
worst stress the system had was doing the backups.

hard drives (multiple computers) so don't need the extra few GBs. Plus
it seems like the Swap Drive occasionaly holds some 'valuable' data??

Nope. You should even be able to access it. 4GB should be enough,
tho.

At install the system decided on 32 GB, err GiB. I have more than
enough room, so....

I've not investigated but sometimes seem the size of whatever is in the
Swap Drive could be something like update stuff ==> run this file next
time a reboot is done??? I've seen times when there's something in the
Swap drive and AFAICT no reason to be because the RAM isn't even half capacity. ...Just guessing.

Dunno. Only time I've ever seen it used is when Chrome is being
stupid, and then I had probably better close down and restart.

Yes, if Chrome (or anything else) is having to use the Swap drive either something else is stuck or getting too greedy!

<chuckle> Actually does make sense: some motherboards have two slots, others 4. If 50 motherboards have two slots and 50 motherboards have
four then the average is 3 slots. (This is the first time I've seen a motherboard with eight slots - I'd be checking if 8+8+8+8+8+8+8+8 could
be used to give me 64 -- cheaper to buy 8 8's than 4 16's? (That kind

8GB are about the largest before price per GB starts majorly
going up. (I get it used from any of several used-RAM dealers;
dunno what new prices are doing but they all went up last year.)

I'm hoping to have the RAM for the new system in the storage box.
Haven't checked yet. Might be able to take from the unused/stored
computers, though that tends to render them useless unless can exchnage
a small RAM stick for the 'stolen' larger one. Otherwise its credit
card time! And I've also purchased used RAM from so far reliable
sources.

of a system would probably max out with 256 GB, maybe 512, of memory -
I doubt I'd want to spend that amount of money at once -- do a memory upgrade every so ofetn when need the smaller RAM for another computer.)

Silver is maxed out with 64GB. Fireball also has 64GB, but being
a workstation type board can max out at 192GB. Both have 8 slots.

I'll probably go between 16 and 32 GB for the new system.

KM> Oh, no, the $50 brand new vidcards are now $200 brand new
KM> vidcards.
Oh - that seems more like taking excuse of the Supply Chain Issue.

And the chip shortage. There just isn't anything in the pipeline.

That too!

One thing I found with the new monitors is they are sometimes too slow
in auto-switching to capture the computer's VGA signal, or at least on booting. Was the reason I kept the CRT VGA monitor semi-handy. Might be just the older computers as I haven't used the VGA monitor in ages.

I've found they can be slow to come back from sleep. I have a
couple CRTs yet but haven't seen 'em in years!

Yes, I remember that sluggishness. I think one thing that helps, or
helped at the time, was the monitor was only VGA: the monitor and the
computer didn't need to do the handshaking and deciding routine.
Monitor: VGA. Computer: well OK then.

> Change is good! I can't imagine you listening to Bubble Gum Rock!
KM> Well, I do like the Raveonettes... tho I'm not sure how bubbly
KM> they are...
I selected a semi-random video (something Love Song -- the earlier
listed were their Christmas songs) -- she reminded me of Blondie. Music wasn't!

Yeah, they're like Blondie on bad drugs. <g> "The Last Dance"
came on my little MP3 player, or I'd have never heard of 'em.

Some time back Jukebox-type e-mails were being circulated. (I knew the
source, so very low chance of it being a virus infection.) What was fun
for me is I could sample the music - nope, nope, hmm! Never heard of
this guy but I like it!

KM> People like all sorts of crap, or it wouldn't exist. So long as I
KM> don't have to endure it, why do I care??
Nope! Actually I like having other music suggested and have discovered stuff I never knew about. Admittedly I'm not into "screaming rock" nor fall-asleep classical nor twangy country yet there are selections I do
like.

Yeah, you never know. Frex I follow a Japanese violinist... look
up Teppei Okada on Youtube. He does all sorts of weird stuff
besides the obvious. Including musical standup, funny even tho in
Japanese of which I have like two words.

Run "Closed Caption | grep -i 'Google Translate'" (Not the right
formatting but hopefully conveys the joke.)

> Go to https://youtu.be/zx8M5DXmH_0, though when I copied that the
KM> It's daaaaaaark!!
<Checking> Really? It's nice and bright! ...Then it dawned on me! <g>

Is that how it works? My sundial must need recalibrating.

It's always 5 o'clock somewhere! (That's a reference to a country-
western song out a few years ago.)

For some reason the OxBlue site I reference is still pointing at the riverbank/under the bridges -- do know this Spring Bettendorf is
supposed to be installing some sort of elevator so walkers and bikers on
the River Trail can get up onto the I-74 Bridge to cross to the Illinois side (there's a pedestrian lane built into one of the bridges).

I was noticing how much flood space there is under that
bridge....

There are times when it and more will be used! This year probably not
as much: news had a blurb where this year's snowfall in Iowa is about
half of normal.

Pretty! It seems they're showing as much snow as I have here: thought Montanta was supposed to be colder and snowier than I am in Iowa!

A lot drier than Iowa... and we got hardly any snow this year.
We've had about 15 inches here, total, and it's long gone. But
that's not terribly unusual to get every few years. We made up
for it with 106" a couple years back.

Eek! We tend to have that similar cycling. Gee, not all that distant!
There have been years when wondering where to put the next snowfall and

> could bluff -- if I knew how to gamble!

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Hi Ky!

KM> The main diff being that at 190W peak, the i7 is harder to keep
KM> cool.
Well I didn't find that but did find the two are essentially the same.

Not a huge difference for everyday use, no. I usually go with
last year's CPU, then upgrade it when this year's becomes last
year's.

I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for
used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one.

KM> Fact is the stock cooler usually scrapes by, so better is not an
KM> emergency if you're just doing everyday stuff and not gaming or
I'm planning on using a much better cooler, especially after the fiasco
with the "recommended by AMD" cooler on the FX-8320 in this computer:

AMD stock cookers, er, coolers have always been utter crap, all
the way back. They were marketed to overclockers who always had
to replace the stock cooler, so why put one cent more into
quality than they had to? hence the stock AMD cooler is always
about three generations inadequate for anything more strenuous
than initial bootup.

I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below)
is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo-
packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the
point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU?

fine at first, then started occasionally revving fans, then mysteriously shutting down. Installed pSensor and some logging: the temperature is
what before it shuts down?!?!! Install a CoolerMaster Hypo Evo 212, generally stays around the 100øF / 40øC mark.

ANY off-the-shelf cooler would be better than ANY stock AMD
cooler. They're intended to be trashed and replaced; see above.
Aluminum and half normal size for the CPU class, with half the
fan too.

And my Scottish Guy says why waste the money? Here the stock cooler was sufficent at the beginning -- at least several months. Then I started
having issues with random shutdowns and nothing major software-wise had changed. Sure, OS updates, added some software - nothing extraordinary
and nothing I could point a finger to (like run XYZ and things heat up). Created a timer log (date >> logfile) to find out when and so what
overnight event was causing the by then semi-consistent shutdowns. Deja
Dup - the backup utlity! Google: CPU-intensive (well, yeah), nothing
changed in updates though.

Did eventually find pSensor so monitored the various temperatures: CPU
the culprit and also found out about the stock heatsink/fan was <poo>.

And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the overheating.

Intel's HSFs are at least adequate for everyday use, if not for
heavy gaming or overclocking. Copper core, decent fan.

Which tends to make sense to me: when overclocking one is going above
the standard so one needs to compensate: heavy duty PSU, heavy duty
cooling, etc. Gaming -- well to me seems mostly video processing so
'video card' but the video card is governed by the CPU so again extra
heat generated.

And the Noctura fan is probably overkill for my use but from my AMD
experience more is a lot better than less. For me installing a tower
fan during the construction phase is a lot more convenient than pulling everything apart later. (This case didn't have the 'access port' so disassemble everything.)

KM> https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-upcoming-alder-lake-stock-cooler-ge
KM> ts-tested/
KM> What looks so-so but has a copper core will outperform what looks
KM> great but has an aluminum core.
Personally I don't care too much what the inside looks like: I don't see
it unless I'm working inside. And outside I prefer plain.

Yeah, same here. But there's a fad for swoopy-looking CPU
coolers, which IMO is just stupid. Some look like they'd put an
awful lot of stress on the mainboard, being topheavy monsters.
(I'm lookin' at you, Zalman...)

I'm briefly entertained by the blinken-lights but swirling LED displays
on the fans, .. what pattern for the memory? They're a long narrown
line.

.. Useless Fact: Zebras didn't invent algebra.

I needed more useless facts. <g>

Useless facts aren't useless after a use has been found!



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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for
used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one.

Yeah, Worst Buy has 'em for $279, best used price is $269, why bother.
Still too new and a starved chip market.

I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below)
is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo-

AMD markets to gamers, and occasionally to HP for budget PCs. AMD is not concerned about reputation; HP will require their own spec be met, and
gamers will always go buy the biggest cooler they can find because they
get a thrill from overclocking. So AMD figures no point in splurging on
the cooler. Intel customers are more likely to leave things stock, so
best have an acceptable cooler.

packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the
point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU?

There is that. If you test only with gaming benchmarks, they'll shine.
If you test more realworld work, not so much.

And my Scottish Guy says why waste the money? Here the stock cooler was sufficent at the beginning -- at least several months. Then I started
having issues with random shutdowns and nothing major software-wise had

Yeah, running hot dries out the thermal goo, and then you get gaps and
hot spots.

Did eventually find pSensor so monitored the various temperatures: CPU
the culprit and also found out about the stock heatsink/fan was <poo>.

I coulda told you that! In fact, I probably did. <g>

And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the overheating.

Haven't found dust bunnies actually do that much harm.

KM> Intel's HSFs are at least adequate for everyday use, if not for
KM> heavy gaming or overclocking. Copper core, decent fan.

Which tends to make sense to me: when overclocking one is going above
the standard so one needs to compensate: heavy duty PSU, heavy duty
cooling, etc. Gaming -- well to me seems mostly video processing so
'video card' but the video card is governed by the CPU so again extra
heat generated.

Nowadays it's both, and cooling the GPU has become the Next Big Thing.
Triple fans and radiators and the like. I have a GPU radiator (no fan)
that came with a used card... card had a short, got a refund on that
half, but someday I'll swap the radiator for the dead fan on Bullet's
GPU, as I think it will fit.

And the Noctura fan is probably overkill for my use but from my AMD experience more is a lot better than less. For me installing a tower
fan during the construction phase is a lot more convenient than pulling everything apart later. (This case didn't have the 'access port' so disassemble everything.)

It won't do any harm, for sure.

> .. Useless Fact: Zebras didn't invent algebra.
KM> I needed more useless facts. <g>

Useless facts aren't useless after a use has been found!

Note to self: get a zebra.
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Hi Ky!

I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one.

Yeah, Worst Buy has 'em for $279, best used price is $269, why
bother. Still too new and a starved chip market.

IMO when selling used stuff like electronic parts one is going to take a
hit, especially if it's otherwise relatively available. I don't expect
a give-away, but not going to pay near full price.

I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below)
is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo-

AMD markets to gamers, and occasionally to HP for budget PCs. AMD
is not concerned about reputation; HP will require their own spec
be met, and gamers will always go buy the biggest cooler they can
find because they get a thrill from overclocking. So AMD figures
no point in splurging on the cooler. Intel customers are more
likely to leave things stock, so best have an acceptable cooler.

Makes sense, but still not quite. You're explaining it so I
understand the situation, it's the situation that's not quite making
sense. Of course I'm looking at it from the non-gamer viewpoint, plus a
bit of the Scottish no-waste one.

packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the
point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU?

There is that. If you test only with gaming benchmarks, they'll
shine. If you test more realworld work, not so much.

And that might be another problem I have: look at the pretty graphs,
will say "higher is better" or "lower is better"; the graphs don't break
down this benchmark is better for what.

And my Scottish Guy says why waste the money? Here the stock cooler was sufficent at the beginning -- at least several months. Then I started having issues with random shutdowns and nothing major software-wise had

Yeah, running hot dries out the thermal goo, and then you get
gaps and hot spots.

Making things even hotter!

Did eventually find pSensor so monitored the various temperatures: CPU
the culprit and also found out about the stock heatsink/fan was <poo>.

I coulda told you that! In fact, I probably did. <g>

You did! :) ...Was more of a verify as I had figured out it was probably
the fan.

And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the overheating.

Haven't found dust bunnies actually do that much harm.

Several years back I had a refurbished computer that started making odd
noises or something -- forgot exactly what but apparently fan noises.
Open up, clean out a few minor dust bunnies. One of the fans didn't
seem right. Look with a flashlight: dust bunny build-up in the hood.
Pull out with tweezer: big chunk. Pull out more. And more. And more!!
I don't think all that was from here. Did get rid of the fan noise!

KM> Intel's HSFs are at least adequate for everyday use, if not for
KM> heavy gaming or overclocking. Copper core, decent fan.
Which tends to make sense to me: when overclocking one is going above
the standard so one needs to compensate: heavy duty PSU, heavy duty
cooling, etc. Gaming -- well to me seems mostly video processing so
'video card' but the video card is governed by the CPU so again extra
heat generated.

Nowadays it's both, and cooling the GPU has become the Next Big
Thing. Triple fans and radiators and the like. I have a GPU
radiator (no fan) that came with a used card... card had a short,
got a refund on that half, but someday I'll swap the radiator for
the dead fan on Bullet's GPU, as I think it will fit.

I've gone to the fanless video cards if I need a card. Over the years
the fans have clogged and therefore stopped cooling; the good news is
either didn't need the card or I had adequate circulation so the card's
fan was redundant. Don't do gaming, so my results may not hold. Also
don't do overclocking.

> .. Useless Fact: Zebras didn't invent algebra.
KM> I needed more useless facts. <g>
Useless facts aren't useless after a use has been found!

Note to self: get a zebra.

Hmmm: I figured you more of an A or B:



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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for
> used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one.
KM> Yeah, Worst Buy has 'em for $279, best used price is $269, why
KM> bother. Still too new and a starved chip market.

IMO when selling used stuff like electronic parts one is going to take a
hit, especially if it's otherwise relatively available. I don't expect
a give-away, but not going to pay near full price.

Used to be a fair used price was half of current wholesale. What with
the chip shortage, now it's 80% of current retail, so there's not near
as much incentive to hunt up used components. For a mere 20% difference
I'll buy new and get a warranty.

And we won't even discuss the price of used motherboards...

> I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS
> (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below)
> is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo-
KM> AMD markets to gamers, and occasionally to HP for budget PCs. AMD
KM> is not concerned about reputation; HP will require their own spec
KM> be met, and gamers will always go buy the biggest cooler they can
KM> find because they get a thrill from overclocking. So AMD figures
KM> no point in splurging on the cooler. Intel customers are more
KM> likely to leave things stock, so best have an acceptable cooler.

Makes sense, but still not quite. You're explaining it so I
understand the situation, it's the situation that's not quite making
sense. Of course I'm looking at it from the non-gamer viewpoint, plus a
bit of the Scottish no-waste one.

It makes sense if you're a bean-counter in the marketing department, who
knows his market, and relies on gamers' bragging for free advertising.

It looks like insanity to we who expect things to work as-is out of the
box without having to hunt up a bunch of pricey modifications.

Seriously, for the effort gamers put into overclocking and concomitant
extra cooling, they could just buy a faster CPU to start with. But some
of it is the challenge and having bragging rights. Gamers were all green
with envy when someone took a lowly 3GHz Celeron and overclocked it to
5.5GHz! (They practically had to give it its own refrigeration unit, and
it wasn't good for much, but hey, it worked!)

Actually, IIRC it was immersed in oil with a cooling pump. And I was like..
for that much mess I can buy a faster CPU. But no challenge in that!

> packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the
> point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU?
KM> There is that. If you test only with gaming benchmarks, they'll
KM> shine. If you test more realworld work, not so much.

And that might be another problem I have: look at the pretty graphs,
will say "higher is better" or "lower is better"; the graphs don't break
down this benchmark is better for what.

Yeah, that's why I don't put too much stock in benchmarks that use only
games to crank the numbers.

CPU-Z has a built-in benchmarker now, which I find is good enough. I
expect all it does is run the CPU against some repetitive calculation.
Mostly all I want to do is compare my own against each other, and if I'm shopping for parts, against the cost of higher or lower performance. I
don't need to know the frames-per-second in the latest fancy-graphics game.

Passmark's stats are usually good enough for the purpose, too. Like
yesterday, decided I still need to find Silver a better vidcard. How
about this one? card that's in it gets a Passmark rating of 200; one I'm looking at, 1100. That's significant, and the feature set is close
enough, so for the relatively small price, let's try it. Yeah, so it's
bottom end compared to the new cards that score 11,000. The rest of the hardware isn't up to that, and I can't justify a $1200 vidcard!!!

> And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the
> overheating.
KM> Haven't found dust bunnies actually do that much harm.

Several years back I had a refurbished computer that started making odd noises or something -- forgot exactly what but apparently fan noises.
Open up, clean out a few minor dust bunnies. One of the fans didn't
seem right. Look with a flashlight: dust bunny build-up in the hood.
Pull out with tweezer: big chunk. Pull out more. And more. And more!!
I don't think all that was from here. Did get rid of the fan noise!

Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!!

Worst I've seen... client had PC sitting in front of a window, in a
dusty part of the desert, for a Long Time. I used a trowel to clean out
the dirt, which had completely covered the lower slots. Bloody wonder it
still worked.

I've gone to the fanless video cards if I need a card. Over the years

I prefer fanless, but the option isn't always there.

What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??

the fans have clogged and therefore stopped cooling; the good news is
either didn't need the card or I had adequate circulation so the card's
fan was redundant. Don't do gaming, so my results may not hold. Also
don't do overclocking.

Yeah, that. Fans on vidcards have finally improved, but then you get
into helicopters, and I don't want the noise. But the little fans like
to die, and those with fans are not designed to do without. So.. if
possible, fanless. But no objection to a passive radiator (heat pipes)
-- which will always work, no bloody fan involved.

Bullet's vidcard has a replaceable fan (many are not) but those one-inch
fans have a lifespan of about two minutes, and then they rattle madly or worse, stop turning but the motor is still running so get HOT. Finally
removed it entirely and let the side case fan do the job, since it blows almost directly onto the vidcard. It seems no worse off.
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Hi Ky!

> I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for
> used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one.
KM> Yeah, Worst Buy has 'em for $279, best used price is $269, why
KM> bother. Still too new and a starved chip market.
IMO when selling used stuff like electronic parts one is going to take a hit, especially if it's otherwise relatively available. I don't expect
a give-away, but not going to pay near full price.

Used to be a fair used price was half of current wholesale. What
with the chip shortage, now it's 80% of current retail, so
there's not near as much incentive to hunt up used components.
For a mere 20% difference I'll buy new and get a warranty.

Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good
as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used --
works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the
extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale
price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the
CPU via eBay: their eBay store shop's price was a dollar less than
buying from their website directly (which was the same as lowest price
on Amazon). So I saved a dollar!!

And we won't even discuss the price of used motherboards...

I haven't purchased a used motherboard in ages: have been trickling down
my own.

> I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS
> (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below)
> is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo-
KM> AMD markets to gamers, and occasionally to HP for budget PCs. AMD
KM> is not concerned about reputation; HP will require their own spec
KM> be met, and gamers will always go buy the biggest cooler they can
KM> find because they get a thrill from overclocking. So AMD figures
KM> no point in splurging on the cooler. Intel customers are more
KM> likely to leave things stock, so best have an acceptable cooler.
Makes sense, but still not quite. You're explaining it so I
understand the situation, it's the situation that's not quite making
sense. Of course I'm looking at it from the non-gamer viewpoint, plus a
bit of the Scottish no-waste one.

It makes sense if you're a bean-counter in the marketing
department, who knows his market, and relies on gamers' bragging
for free advertising.

Probably so -- again different vantage points. The bean-counter comment
did remind me of when I bought a motherboard package years ago. Decent
MB specs, came with CPU and cooler, RAM. etc. I don't recall what it
was but something didn't quite match up correctly - whatever it was
something minor and I just substituted. Was something a person only
working with the numbers would have overlooked.

It looks like insanity to we who expect things to work as-is out
of the box without having to hunt up a bunch of pricey
modifications.

Probably my basis for expecting the "AMD approved" CPU fan to properly
cool when I don't overclock, don't make the CPU do excessive woro, I
have proper air circulation, etc.

Seriously, for the effort gamers put into overclocking and
concomitant extra cooling, they could just buy a faster CPU to
start with. But some of it is the challenge and having bragging
rights. Gamers were all green with envy when someone took a lowly
3GHz Celeron and overclocked it to 5.5GHz! (They practically had
to give it its own refrigeration unit, and it wasn't good for
much, but hey, it worked!)

It didn't do much, but it did it quickly!!

Actually, IIRC it was immersed in oil with a cooling pump. And I
was like.. for that much mess I can buy a faster CPU. But no
challenge in that!

OK, that aspect I'd probably have a gaping mouth: electronics and
liquids generally don't mix, so seeing a computer taking a bath would
give a bit of that wow factor.

...Didn't the cooling fans have a hard time rotating in the oil? <bseg>

> packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the
> point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU?
KM> There is that. If you test only with gaming benchmarks, they'll
KM> shine. If you test more realworld work, not so much.
And that might be another problem I have: look at the pretty graphs,
will say "higher is better" or "lower is better"; the graphs don't break down this benchmark is better for what.

Yeah, that's why I don't put too much stock in benchmarks that
use only games to crank the numbers.

I used the comparison charts to try to do a final verification it wasn't
worth the extra money for the i7 over the i5 for my usage. Overall the
i7 was slightly better -- very slightly -- but IMO not worth the extra
money (which I effectively spent on additional RAM).

CPU-Z has a built-in benchmarker now, which I find is good
enough. I expect all it does is run the CPU against some
repetitive calculation. Mostly all I want to do is compare my own
against each other, and if I'm shopping for parts, against the
cost of higher or lower performance. I don't need to know the frames-per-second in the latest fancy-graphics game.

Passmark's stats are usually good enough for the purpose, too.
Like yesterday, decided I still need to find Silver a better
vidcard. How about this one? card that's in it gets a Passmark
rating of 200; one I'm looking at, 1100. That's significant, and
the feature set is close enough, so for the relatively small
price, let's try it. Yeah, so it's bottom end compared to the new
cards that score 11,000. The rest of the hardware isn't up to
that, and I can't justify a $1200 vidcard!!!

Nor can I!! I'll look to see what the high-end options offer: sometimes
learn about stuff I didn't know existed or forgot existed. (Two
monitors became handy somewhat recently -- up until then didn't really
care if a video card could handle more than one.) ...High resolution?
Well, I think some of the TVs here can handle 4K; monitors don't. SO
I'm not going to pay for 4K much less 8K capability, though maybe if a
little bit more I might on the theory if can do 4K it will have no
problems doing 1080.

> And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the
> overheating.
KM> Haven't found dust bunnies actually do that much harm.
Several years back I had a refurbished computer that started making odd noises or something -- forgot exactly what but apparently fan noises.
Open up, clean out a few minor dust bunnies. One of the fans didn't
seem right. Look with a flashlight: dust bunny build-up in the hood.
Pull out with tweezer: big chunk. Pull out more. And more. And more!!
I don't think all that was from here. Did get rid of the fan noise!

Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!!

Really! Apparently the lack of proper cooling was causing the CPU to
throttle some as after the surgical removal it seemed to run better.
Not to mention quieter: no dust buffaloes drumming on the fan blades!

Worst I've seen... client had PC sitting in front of a window, in
a dusty part of the desert, for a Long Time. I used a trowel to
clean out the dirt, which had completely covered the lower slots.
Bloody wonder it still worked.

Ouch!

I've gone to the fanless video cards if I need a card. Over the years

I prefer fanless, but the option isn't always there.

Probably true: I haven't checked lately.

What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get??

None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to
avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to
answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via
the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the
second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also
considering plugging the new computer's 2nd monitor (DisplayPort) into
the HDMI Switch everybody else is using. Advantage might be not having
to switch the monitor back to HDMI when a test/other computer is
rebooting or otherwise looses the connection for a half-second or so.

the fans have clogged and therefore stopped cooling; the good news is
either didn't need the card or I had adequate circulation so the card's
fan was redundant. Don't do gaming, so my results may not hold. Also
don't do overclocking.

Yeah, that. Fans on vidcards have finally improved, but then you
get into helicopters, and I don't want the noise. But the little
fans like to die, and those with fans are not designed to do
without. So.. if possible, fanless. But no objection to a passive
radiator (heat pipes) -- which will always work, no bloody fan
involved.

Yes, that noise factor is a relatively frequent topic coming up in the
MythTV Forum. Fanless video cards are somewhat recommended for that
reason. OTOH have the PSU fan, the CPU fan.... Everybody around here
is resonably quiet, though I get suspicious if things are too quiet!

Bullet's vidcard has a replaceable fan (many are not) but those
one-inch fans have a lifespan of about two minutes, and then they
rattle madly or worse, stop turning but the motor is still
running so get HOT. Finally removed it entirely and let the side
case fan do the job, since it blows almost directly onto the
vidcard. It seems no worse off.

Yes: I know at least one of the built-in fans for the video card around
here has stopped; most don't seem to be replaceable. Dumb! But then one generally can't replace the fan in a PSU either. (<chuckle> I do have a
PSU which was fixed by attaching a 120mm fan to the outside!)

And yes, I do wonder how much heat is created by the locked motor. Have
some old Muffin fans here (taken out of service in mainframes in the
early 70's) -- when they lock up they do get rather hot! IIRC rated 14
W.




� BarryMartin3@ �
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Hi Ky!

Had a lock up this evening -- plugged in the same card reader adapter as
I had probably a half-dozen times in the last several hours. Was
running my Voltage.sh script -- did see the log being written prior to
the lockup, was there prior to the reboot (or at least the graphical
directory display showed it as there), but on reboot it was gone.

So appears not going to see anything with the voltage monitoring script. Southbridge controls the hard drive, so maybe why? And no, did not have
the USB voltage monitor adapter thingie in place -- have to leave
something for later!



� BarryMartin3@ �
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

Had a lock up this evening -- plugged in the same card reader adapter as
I had probably a half-dozen times in the last several hours. Was
running my Voltage.sh script -- did see the log being written prior to
the lockup, was there prior to the reboot (or at least the graphical directory display showed it as there), but on reboot it was gone.

So appears not going to see anything with the voltage monitoring script. Southbridge controls the hard drive, so maybe why? And no, did not have
the USB voltage monitor adapter thingie in place -- have to leave
something for later!

I think it's borkend...

Basically when there's an electrical fault, EVERYTHING stops, so no
writing anything anywhere. If a file was in progress at the time, it'll
likely POOF unless the utility writing it keeps incremental versions.
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