BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> USB extender cables, long and short (short is a 5 pack):

Will save and check out later. LIS in the previous message, I used
'tight' to mean running low on the number of free ports on hub.

Oh, that too.. have got to where my minimum to buy a hub is 7 ports! of
course you can daisy-chain 'em... the one I can see has plugged into it
two secondary hubs (old ones for small crap that doesn't need USB3
speed), four random devices, and the power for the KVM that is supposed
to run off keyboard power but is only being used for video. I have no
idea what's plugged in down there out of sight; when I peer behind the
two adjacent PCs it looks like a total rat's nest down there. Wasn't USB supposed to reduce cable hell?? <g>

I've used extension cables just because the port was on the rear panel,
the computer housed in a cubbyhole of sorts, and sometimes a bother to install or even not able to install a front panel port.

Yeah... USB3 is another fun one, what's with having to provide my own
front panel connector?? (Another thing I bought lately, same source.)

KM> They have all kinds of small techie components and tools. Was
KM> very pleased and now they're my go-to for USB stuff.

Will check out -- and I've got around 90% of by "COVID-19" check from the government!

Finally got that too. Was beginning to wonder if it was imaginary. <g>

.. He's so old his photo ID is a black and white tin-type.

Wait, where'd they get our pictures??
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> Yes, it would almost seem the gaming excellence would translate to
> super-fast CPU and GPU reaction -- how much work is it to put up a black
> or any coloured letter on a screen read from a hard drive compared to if
> an objects strikes another at a 47ø angle.....
KM> Actually it's very difficult, but it's also a distinct subset of
KM> CPU math -- so to wow gamer benchmarks, the CPU only needs to be
KM> good at game-related math, not at math in general. Have
KM> repeatedly seen this problem with AMD "gamer" CPUs, where when
KM> you ask 'em to do math that's not-gaming, they get really
KM> sluggish. (Windows Tubes screensaver is actually a good test;
KM> it's apparently very math-intensive.)

I see we've found more holes in my thinking process! It would seem
gaming math would be built on general math. Probably in real life but
not in computers.

Mostly it's "is this in front of that, if so draw it" type math.
Crunching a database is a different animal.

As for Windows' Tubes screensaver, reminded how the 'snake' screensaver

I've never seen that!

for Wildcat! is extremely CPU-intensive (at least here): slams my CPU
usage to 100%, or at least with the old system. Changed to the 'text'
one and just a spike when the sign moves to a new position

Woah....

KM> You CAN underclock 'em, ya know. At least if the BIOS lets you
KM> mess with CPU settings. Most CPUs will work just fine
KM> underclocked, including set at lower voltage.

Trudge-trudge-trudge....! <g> I don't think I've ever fiddled with
clock speeds. The BIOS on this system will allow user configuration.
The problem I was having originally was probably more due to the one
stick of RAM being faulty, which I had assumed was OK by the quick test
being performed at boot. (MemTest 86+ even passed the stick on its
quick check option which took longer than the BIOS's.)

Yeah, I've had MemTest pass bad RAM too. One was given to me marked BAD, worked anyway for a long time, eventually started causing bluescreens.
So it was bad, for certain values of bad. <g>

KM> Oh, another AMD shortfall: Double Vision (of the Socket939) CPU
KM> is one that can be severely overclocked. Nominally 2.0GHz, but
KM> can be clocked to nearly double that if the BIOS supports it
KM> (mine will only give me 10% more). So... have found I can either
KM> set RAM to its correct 400MHz (instead of the 333MHz the BIOS
KM> wants to default to), OR I can set the CPU to 2.2GHz, but not
KM> both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so
KM> guess which I did. <g>

Ummm....! <g> Set the RAM correctly!

You win a banana!

> Yeah!! ...Can you use 4x 4GB DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333)? A few years ago I
> accidentally picked up this server memory. HP 21576835. (Googled -
> didn't seem to show anything.)
KM> Oh yes, this is *exactly* what I can use!! Frankenservers R Us. :D

E-mail where you want it sent if you haven't already deciphered my
contact address at the bottom. (So Barry underscore Martin under-
score three at q dot com.) (I have't look at e-mail yet this morning.)

I believe I have now done so. Will come from rez at doomgold dot com.
(Stable address since I own the domain.) And how did you know tomorrow
is my birthday? :D (Well, today by when you read this!)

Yuuhhhhhp: I've been semi-sorta on the lookout for a good Intel-based motherboard and CPU based on all this; what you just said pretty much

So what exactly are you looking for?

cinched it for me to not do AMD any longer, or at least for my primary systems. ("Secondary" being the MythTV Frontend computers around here.)

Yeah, I'll use an AMD if it falls on my head, but not for a primary or anything critical. And I won't pay money for 'em. (Er, well, I think I
paid $5 for the upgrade CPU in Westworld, only cuz it was 4x faster than
what came with it, that being pretty useless.) -- Have also noted much
corner cutting on the AMD motherboards over the years... crappy
chipsets... all sorts of things to love. Not!!

Well, they DO support cheaper type RAM, but you can't use it with
anything else!

The good news is I did a 'split' in the installation: the OS is on the
SSD and the data on the HDD. Could use a new SSD with the Intel-based
OS, though then I loose all the added-on utilities onthe AMD-SSD. Will
have to see about how others did the switch -- ideas?

I like to do OS on the SSD and data on the spinning rust... so I fail to
see the problem. <g> You can just clone to the SSD using something
like PartitionWizardFree [Windows] (dunno if Clonezilla knows how to
align SSD partitions) so why would you lose anything? I've been dragging around the same Utilities directory for a dozen systems now; there are probably still DOS utils from the 1980s in there...

Reminder! Probably have somewhere an ANSI of a finger with a reminder
string tied around it.... My current USB 3 hub has blue LEDs but only

Haha you do!

indicate the port is connected: the USB 2 scanner is blue, the USB 3
external HDD is blue, the dead metal thumbdrive I'm using as a ground

WTF??

When I wrote 'tight' up there actually meant number of ports and not
physical closeness. At the time I was using the 4-port hub did have two 'permanent' devices plugged in, sometimes three, occasionally all four
used, so the port availablity was 'tight'.

Oh! In that case, more hubs. <g>

The Cooler Master I'm using was gifted from a friend in Michigan as he couldn't figure out how it was to install. I think he was confused by
the dumbed-down line drawing instructions and didn't realize the
motherboard connector (holder) had to be swapped out, though he also had

Oh, I hate when that happens.

mentioned about a concern of moving the pipes holding the cooling liquid
too much and cracking, thus leaking. (Was he talking about the same cooler??) Both of those did cause me to hold back on my swap. ...Anyway, unless one really twists the heat sink itself it's not going to break
(this model, anyway), the need to swap the motherboard holder portion
did confuse me for a few minutes. The 120mm fan appears to be able to
use a standard replacement: comes with brackets to snap to the heat
sink.

So far so good??

I'm just not into those pretty lights that have no real use. Everyone I
know personally gets overwhelmed by the number of computers up here;
they wouldn't know a CPU from RAM if laid on the table.

Hahahaha... what all do you have there nowadays? I remember the SuperXT
and the Mythbuntu, but otherwise I don't think we've been introduced.

Yes, for you might be worthwhile to check out. The only thing I need
Windows for is to occasionally run recovery software for munged
thumbdrives.

What do you use for that?

...Still running Virtual XP for the BBS stuff and X10

(ActiveHome) but both have a Linux option, just haven't gotten a Round
TuIt -- probably mired in the dust of those projects!

Since Silver has 32GB RAM (and can take 32GB more when I find a good
price on matching stuff) I think the way it's going to go is XP64 (being utterly stable, and an interface I like) for the base system, and VMs
with XP32 for the stuff that needs 16bit, and PCLinuxOS for when I need
a 'modern' browser.

Was astonished to see XP64 immediately phone home and download 1.5GB
worth of updates!!

<chuckle> I have on one (maybe more) motherboard a LED next to the RAM
which is there to mean it's running properly -- nice little plus to make diagnostics a little easier when something goes wrong.

Yeah, functional LEDs are one thing... emulating an Xmas tree, tho.... Silver's New! Improved!! guts have half a dozen tiny LEDs, but they all
mean something. Power on, RAM powered, boot sequence, that sort of thing.

As for the LEDs on the RAM, not sure what they would indicate other than "bein' purdy". I'm running 6.1 GB usage right now -- and that usage line
is usually White Sands Proving Grounds flat -- boooooorrrrrinnnnng!

Purdy apparently is it. How the heck are you using 6.1GB RAM??

That too! One of the reasons I've not bought cutting edge anything -- usually initial release too expensive and pretty much know they're going
to find problems/bugs.

I don't like cutting edge much myself, because the only difference
between that and bleeding edge is who does the bleeding!

You've seen the picture on the Internet of someone using a box fan to
cool their computer! (Open case.)

No, but that's how I repaired a friend's Mac... only needed a new PSU
fan... PSU was *riveted* inside the case. Let's just let it hang open instead...

> > Why it's so dark out?!
> KM> The light all prismed away!
> I'll have to reflect on that!
KM> I don't see anything. Is it dark?

Do you have your eyelids open? Ah! your hands are in front of your eyes!

How can I tell? It's dark!
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Hi Ky!

KM> USB extender cables, long and short (short is a 5 pack):
Will save and check out later. LIS in the previous message, I used
'tight' to mean running low on the number of free ports on hub.

Oh, that too.. have got to where my minimum to buy a hub is 7
ports! of course you can daisy-chain 'em... the one I can see has

Yes, could daisy-chain them, though depends on where the hubs are. The original plan here was to with the computer at the right of the Computer
Desk to go 'up' to a "splitter hub" -- no, not some rare device, just a designation for what function it had: mainly to split runs to other
parts of the room. The run to the left would have a small hub in the
right cubbyhole of the Computer Desk Hutch, continue on to another small
hub on the left. (The run from the 'splitter hub' in the other
direction would have had similar connecting points.)

Well, as you could probably tell by the phrasing, that didn't quite
work. The 'right hutch hub' probabaly would have had the keyboard and
mouse plugged in to it -- that's one of those "can but shouldn't" deals
so two additional cables behind the desk. ...Actually three: due to
what might be a Southbridge problem once in a while one or the other
stops connecting -- that hasn't happened for a few months. Unplug,
replug - back up. Once the silly thing just didn't want to work so
strung another USB extension back there - fixed! (So much for
labeling!)

Sort of back to my hub story, ends up because of Stuff on Desk, access
to UPS power, etc., easier to have all permanent and temporary USB
devices on my left, so the plan for the 4-port USB Hub didn't quite work
as planned.

plugged into it two secondary hubs (old ones for small crap that
doesn't need USB3 speed), four random devices, and the power for
the KVM that is supposed to run off keyboard power but is only
being used for video. I have no idea what's plugged in down there
out of sight; when I peer behind the two adjacent PCs it looks
like a total rat's nest down there. Wasn't USB supposed to reduce
cable hell?? <g>

As that didn't quite work out that's why WiFi was invented!

I found my USB scanner scans faster when connected to a USB 3 port even
though it's old enough not know kbnow what USB3 is. Probably just able
to send the data faster than USB2 speeds, or maybe less time waiting for
the RTS/CTS // Xon/Xoff signals. Could also be it was barely compliant
with the USB2 power requirements and the extra current of USB 3, though
seems like the pins are wrong -- as long as it's happy!

As for things requiring power when they probably don't have to, I have a
HDMI switch which 'needs' to be powered. Tried a few different ones, so
either all do or they all have the same basic circuit even though
different brands and port numbers. (A switch I had downstairs not
requiring power needed power up here sometimes.)

I've used extension cables just because the port was on the rear panel,
the computer housed in a cubbyhole of sorts, and sometimes a bother to install or even not able to install a front panel port.

Yeah... USB3 is another fun one, what's with having to provide my
own front panel connector?? (Another thing I bought lately, same
source.)

Agree!! And unless there's something I don't know it would seem better
for the user to have a front panel USB 3 port than USB 2 if a choice had
to be made. Quite sure USB 3 is a little more expensive and so may have
to charge an extra $5 for the 49› difference.

KM> They have all kinds of small techie components and tools. Was
KM> very pleased and now they're my go-to for USB stuff.
Will check out -- and I've got around 90% of by "COVID-19" check from the government!

Finally got that too. Was beginning to wonder if it was
imaginary. <g>

Hopefully you're talking about the check!!! My Mother finally received
hers also -- I was half-figuring on the direct deposit option but guess
she got her little tax refunds via check. (Her Social Security is
direct deposit....)

.. He's so old his photo ID is a black and white tin-type.

Wait, where'd they get our pictures??

Mine seems to be when I photobombed the driving of the Golden Stake for
the Transcontinental Railroad!


¯ ®
¯ Barry_Martin_3@ ®
¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


... Grin and bear it -- No photographs, please!
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Hi Ky!

> Yes, it would almost seem the gaming excellence would translate to
> super-fast CPU and GPU reaction -- how much work is it to put up a black
> or any coloured letter on a screen read from a hard drive compared to if
> an objects strikes another at a 47ø angle.....
KM> Actually it's very difficult, but it's also a distinct subset of
KM> CPU math -- so to wow gamer benchmarks, the CPU only needs to be
KM> good at game-related math, not at math in general. Have
KM> repeatedly seen this problem with AMD "gamer" CPUs, where when
KM> you ask 'em to do math that's not-gaming, they get really
KM> sluggish. (Windows Tubes screensaver is actually a good test;
KM> it's apparently very math-intensive.)
I see we've found more holes in my thinking process! It would seem
gaming math would be built on general math. Probably in real life but
not in computers.

Mostly it's "is this in front of that, if so draw it" type math.
Crunching a database is a different animal.

So 'layering'.

As for Windows' Tubes screensaver, reminded how the 'snake' screensaver

I've never seen that!

As I recall the 'snake' Wildcat! screensaver is similar to the Windows
one just is in black and white but does have shading.

for Wildcat! is extremely CPU-intensive (at least here): slams my CPU
usage to 100%, or at least with the old system. Changed to the 'text'
one and just a spike when the sign moves to a new position

Woah....

I'll have to see if I can get a screen shot of it -- let's see if I
remember how to get to that configuration option... something I don't
fiddle with as know it is wrong.

KM> You CAN underclock 'em, ya know. At least if the BIOS lets you
KM> mess with CPU settings. Most CPUs will work just fine
KM> underclocked, including set at lower voltage. Trudge-trudge-trudge....! <g> I don't think I've ever fiddled with
clock speeds. The BIOS on this system will allow user configuration.
The problem I was having originally was probably more due to the one
stick of RAM being faulty, which I had assumed was OK by the quick test being performed at boot. (MemTest 86+ even passed the stick on its
quick check option which took longer than the BIOS's.)

Yeah, I've had MemTest pass bad RAM too. One was given to me
marked BAD, worked anyway for a long time, eventually started
causing bluescreens. So it was bad, for certain values of bad. <g>

Yup. %) Had one years ago which misbehaved on my system but checked
out fine on a tester (maybe it was a test system) and in someone else's computer.

KM> Oh, another AMD shortfall: Double Vision (of the Socket939) CPU
KM> is one that can be severely overclocked. Nominally 2.0GHz, but
KM> can be clocked to nearly double that if the BIOS supports it
KM> (mine will only give me 10% more). So... have found I can either
KM> set RAM to its correct 400MHz (instead of the 333MHz the BIOS
KM> wants to default to), OR I can set the CPU to 2.2GHz, but not
KM> both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so
KM> guess which I did. <g>
Ummm....! <g> Set the RAM correctly!

You win a banana!

Sometimes it pays to monkey around!!

> Yeah!! ...Can you use 4x 4GB DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333)? A few years ago I
> accidentally picked up this server memory. HP 21576835. (Googled -
> didn't seem to show anything.)
KM> Oh yes, this is *exactly* what I can use!! Frankenservers R Us. :D E-mail where you want it sent if you haven't already deciphered my
contact address at the bottom. (So Barry underscore Martin under-
score three at q dot com.) (I have't look at e-mail yet this morning.)

I believe I have now done so. Will come from rez at doomgold dot
com. (Stable address since I own the domain.) And how did you
know tomorrow is my birthday? :D (Well, today by when you read
this!)

Yeah, and you're still a year younger than I am! So um, yeah, the RAM
will be your birthday present! Just a little late because of, um...
ah... you didn't tell me what you wanted until the last minute!!

Did receive the e-mail and your address; will probably send out Thursday
when I go grocery shopping. Will let you know for certain.

Yuuhhhhhp: I've been semi-sorta on the lookout for a good Intel-based motherboard and CPU based on all this; what you just said pretty much

So what exactly are you looking for?

That's part of the problem: I don't know! And I sort of combine 'CPU'
with "Motherboard" as know they have to be compatible though can be
bought separately. Fast -- I do not like waiting for the CPU to scratch
it's head. This system boots via a SSD and the data is on a HDD.
Current CPU is a (AMD) FX-8320 -- eight cores, I think 3.2 GHz though
couldn't find the speed quickly. Not sure if I really need 8 cores.

USB 3; not sure if need 3.1 but expansion slots are good. "Plenty" of
USB 2 and USB 3 ports (front panel too!, or at least the option -- have
an expansion panel card).

Gigabit LAN.

Video -- separate card is fine though if a decent onboard one; HDMI over
DVI because of the monitor (can use an adapter). Audio I'm connecting
to the audio out as goes into the amp and bookshelf speakers. Could use
an extractor.

Also probably/eventually a second monitor so if integrated video that
little detail.

I like free expansion ports, mainly for the option when upgrading -- so
if a PCIe16 is used for the video card a 'spare' PCIe16 is a plus.

So anything in the $79.99 and under bin?! <bseg>

cinched it for me to not do AMD any longer, or at least for my primary systems. ("Secondary" being the MythTV Frontend computers around here.)

Yeah, I'll use an AMD if it falls on my head, but not for a
primary or anything critical. And I won't pay money for 'em. (Er,
well, I think I paid $5 for the upgrade CPU in Westworld, only
cuz it was 4x faster than what came with it, that being pretty
useless.) -- Have also noted much corner cutting on the AMD
motherboards over the years... crappy chipsets... all sorts of
things to love. Not!!

Unfortunately appears I learned the hard way too. AMD isn't bad, just
isn't quite fitting with my needs/usage.

Well, they DO support cheaper type RAM, but you can't use it with
anything else!

Maybe there's a reason for that?!

The good news is I did a 'split' in the installation: the OS is on the
SSD and the data on the HDD. Could use a new SSD with the Intel-based
OS, though then I loose all the added-on utilities onthe AMD-SSD. Will
have to see about how others did the switch -- ideas?

I like to do OS on the SSD and data on the spinning rust... so I
fail to see the problem. <g> You can just clone to the SSD
using something like PartitionWizardFree [Windows] (dunno if
Clonezilla knows how to align SSD partitions) so why would you
lose anything? I've been dragging around the same Utilities
directory for a dozen systems now; there are probably still DOS
utils from the 1980s in there...

The "loose something" is the vague concept of differences between the
AMD version and the Intel version. Of course the to me slightly sloppy
and confusing use of "amd64" and "i386" terms: really is 64 bit and 32
bit respectively, but a newbie would probably think "AMD" and "Intel".

Reminder! Probably have somewhere an ANSI of a finger with a reminder string tied around it.... My current USB 3 hub has blue LEDs but only

Haha you do!

indicate the port is connected: the USB 2 scanner is blue, the USB 3 external HDD is blue, the dead metal thumbdrive I'm using as a ground

WTF??

<Mr. Rogers voice> Can you say 'idiot lights'? I thought you could!

When I wrote 'tight' up there actually meant number of ports and not physical closeness. At the time I was using the 4-port hub did have two 'permanent' devices plugged in, sometimes three, occasionally all four
used, so the port availablity was 'tight'.

Oh! In that case, more hubs. <g>

Yes! :) As I wrote somewhere, the 4-port hub made sense for the
original plan.

The Cooler Master I'm using was gifted from a friend in Michigan as he couldn't figure out how it was to install. I think he was confused by
the dumbed-down line drawing instructions and didn't realize the
motherboard connector (holder) had to be swapped out, though he also had

Oh, I hate when that happens.

I'll admit to being classified as 'school smart' and sometimes the
'dumbed down' stuff is confusing! He did do a "smack the forehead" when
I told him.

mentioned about a concern of moving the pipes holding the cooling liquid
too much and cracking, thus leaking. (Was he talking about the same cooler??) Both of those did cause me to hold back on my swap. ...Anyway, unless one really twists the heat sink itself it's not going to break
(this model, anyway), the need to swap the motherboard holder portion
did confuse me for a few minutes. The 120mm fan appears to be able to
use a standard replacement: comes with brackets to snap to the heat
sink.

So far so good??

Yes -- and it's not _that_ old yet to have plastic fatigue or the fan
clog up! PSensor (utility I'm using to monitor temperatures) has been
showing higher CPU temperatures lately, probably because it is also
warmer in the Computer Room, probably because it is warmer outside.

I'm just not into those pretty lights that have no real use. Everyone I know personally gets overwhelmed by the number of computers up here;
they wouldn't know a CPU from RAM if laid on the table.

Hahahaha... what all do you have there nowadays? I remember the
SuperXT and the Mythbuntu, but otherwise I don't think we've been introduced.

Yes, I sort of miss the Super XT just because it so upgraded. The
original Laser (brand of computer) motherboard could do a lot more than
the original CPU, hard drive, etc. allowed.

The system I'm on now is an Asus M5A97 R2.0 motherboard with an AMD
FX-8320 cpu running at -- umm - fast. 3.1 or 3.2 GHz comes to mind but
not sure off-hand. 32 GB of RAM but never seen it get above 8 -- sort
of thinking in a new system I probably would go with the option of 32
again but just install 16 - so maybe take half out of this one for it to
use and the new system would have the other half.

The SSD is I think 120 GB. The original plan was to split the card in
thirds: one for the boot, the other two for 'fast storage", sort of a
RAM drive of the NV type. During the trials and tribulations of
installing (because of the original faulty RAM stick) I did play with
UEFI, which takes a bit of the drive -- it's just in there. Was running
low on room in the boot partition so expanded that into one of the "storage/NVRAM" areas.

Hard drive is 3 TB -- waaaay too much but better than running out! At
this point still a little uncomfortable with the solid state drives,
though not enough to not use as a boot device ==> if fails can boot from
a DVD or thumbdrive. OTOH is the data drive fails one is an outta-luck-
duck and has the fun of recovering from condensed-format files from the
backup NAS in the basement.

OK, so that's that system. There's the MythTV backend system, the
various systems downstairs......

Yes, for you might be worthwhile to check out. The only thing I need Windows for is to occasionally run recovery software for munged
thumbdrives.

What do you use for that?

After a while a sledgehammer! EaseUS Partition Master, SanDisk Rescue
Pro. Thought I had a Lexmark recovery utility but not finding it.

Part of the need for the thumbdrive recovery utilties was I had purchased several 'blue' 16 GB thumbdrives from an on-line company with which I've
had good experiencs, name-brand thumbdrives. Bought the blue version
because liked the colour. Some time later similar offer, decide to go
with the gold version -- no reason other than quick distinguishing: I
have <this> on the blue one and <that> on the yellow. The yellow ones
though spec'd the same as the original blue ones are junk -- most failed quickly. I would have returned/RMA'd except would have cost what I paid
for to ship back -- how come they can ship to me in an envelope packet
and I have to use a box? So that brand has been blackballed by me.

...Still running Virtual XP for the BBS stuff and X10

(ActiveHome) but both have a Linux option, just haven't gotten a Round
TuIt -- probably mired in the dust of those projects!

Since Silver has 32GB RAM (and can take 32GB more when I find a
good price on matching stuff) I think the way it's going to go is
XP64 (being utterly stable, and an interface I like) for the base
system, and VMs with XP32 for the stuff that needs 16bit, and
PCLinuxOS for when I need a 'modern' browser.
Was astonished to see XP64 immediately phone home and download
1.5GB worth of updates!!

Uh, yeah! Especially as 'no longer supported'!

<chuckle> I have on one (maybe more) motherboard a LED next to the RAM which is there to mean it's running properly -- nice little plus to make diagnostics a little easier when something goes wrong.

Yeah, functional LEDs are one thing... emulating an Xmas tree,
tho.... Silver's New! Improved!! guts have half a dozen tiny
LEDs, but they all mean something. Power on, RAM powered, boot
sequence, that sort of thing.

I've got a motherboard or two with similar indications. To me fine as
helpful. The first motherboard I had with the "hey! I may not be on but
the power cord is stil plugged in" LED I thought was a good idea.

As for the LEDs on the RAM, not sure what they would indicate other than "bein' purdy". I'm running 6.1 GB usage right now -- and that usage line
is usually White Sands Proving Grounds flat -- boooooorrrrrinnnnng!

Purdy apparently is it. How the heck are you using 6.1GB RAM??

"Easily" as now at 6.8.
LibreOffice 355 MB (6 or 7 open documents)
Gnome (combined a few) 457 MB
Virtual Box (" " ") 170 MB
Psensor 90 MB (temperture and fan monitoring)
Pithos 69 MB (Pandora music utility)
etc. etc., etc.

That too! One of the reasons I've not bought cutting edge anything -- usually initial release too expensive and pretty much know they're going
to find problems/bugs.

I don't like cutting edge much myself, because the only
difference between that and bleeding edge is who does the
bleeding!

I don't mind spending money when necessary, but usually the brand-new
stuff is "overpriced" and the price comes down shortly. Also the new technology is unproven, so has several links to work out. Also
generally noot too much works with the new technology -- as the tagline
says, "Who did the owner of the first modem talk to?".

You've seen the picture on the Internet of someone using a box fan to
cool their computer! (Open case.)

No, but that's how I repaired a friend's Mac... only needed a new
PSU fan... PSU was *riveted* inside the case. Let's just let it
hang open instead...

Well the good news is it probably won't loosen during shipping!!
Many-many-MANY moons ago the store had a vendor for the iMacs -- the
ones that came in bright colours (blue, orange, lime green) and were all-in-one: CRT + motherboard + power supply + whatever else in the
somewhat egg-shaped case. Vendor ran his own shop and also repaired the
IBM compatibles -- we discussed as I was interested in learning more so
I could sell them better, plus maybe getting one. Decent units, just
not a good fit for me as I liked to be able to go inside to upgrade and
do my own repairs -- IIRC the PSU was encased in epoxy, no way to
upgrade except through the USB ports, etc.

> > Why it's so dark out?!
> KM> The light all prismed away!
> I'll have to reflect on that!
KM> I don't see anything. Is it dark?
Do you have your eyelids open? Ah! your hands are in front of your eyes!

How can I tell? It's dark!

Ah! I forgot you're not where one is surrounded by the glow of the city
lights! Here it's like living with a giant night light!


¯ ®
¯ Barry_Martin_3@ ®
¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


... What do you call a bunch of chickens playing hide-and-seek?
Fowl play.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

HI! <g>

> KM> both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so
> KM> guess which I did. <g>
> Ummm....! <g> Set the RAM correctly!
KM> You win a banana!
Sometimes it pays to monkey around!!

Too much monkey business here <g>

KM> I believe I have now done so. Will come from rez at doomgold dot
KM> com. (Stable address since I own the domain.) And how did you
KM> know tomorrow is my birthday? :D (Well, today by when you read
KM> this!)

Yeah, and you're still a year younger than I am! So um, yeah, the RAM

I should have more respect! <g>

will be your birthday present! Just a little late because of, um...
ah... you didn't tell me what you wanted until the last minute!!

I didn't know I was getting older til the last minute <g>

Did receive the e-mail and your address; will probably send out Thursday
when I go grocery shopping. Will let you know for certain.

Soon enough! I'll put off eating the birthday cake too. Actually I won't
have a choice, cuz I didn't make one. :D

> Yuuhhhhhp: I've been semi-sorta on the lookout for a good Intel-based
> motherboard and CPU based on all this; what you just said pretty much
KM> So what exactly are you looking for?

That's part of the problem: I don't know! And I sort of combine 'CPU'
with "Motherboard" as know they have to be compatible though can be

Yeah, with the million options it's nice to know up front they work
together.

bought separately. Fast -- I do not like waiting for the CPU to scratch
it's head. This system boots via a SSD and the data is on a HDD.

That's how I decided to do things too -- boot and programs on the SSD,
data on spinning rust. And decided to add the cheapest NVMe (on a PCIe
adapter card, cuz no support on the motherboard) I could lay hands on
for email and swapfile and VM images, because those are the really big
files that I'm tired of waiting for.

Current CPU is a (AMD) FX-8320 -- eight cores, I think 3.2 GHz though couldn't find the speed quickly. Not sure if I really need 8 cores.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-8320+Eight-Core&id=1782

Faster than a quad-core, but only a bit over half as fast as a low-end
i7. So... for faster, but not too pricey, you probably want something in
a late-generation i7. Something like:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-9700K+%40+3.60GHz&id=3335

For comparison, my "new" (less than 12 years old or so) CPUs with
benchmarks, both Passmark (from their site) and CPU-Z (actual tests):

http://twilightasylum.com/pc/cpus3.htm

My i7 CPUs are only 3rd and 4th generation, so a bit 'slow' compared to current, but they are 5-6 years old, too... old enough that all but
Silver's are corporate discards. Silver's "new" CPU+board came from eBay
for $200, and only that much because in its day it was a fairly high-end motherboard, and this model is still in some demand due to also
supporting Xeon CPUs and server RAM.

Fireball's CPU was about $20, and if I'd had to buy the mainboard
they're about $75. You can pick up a complete Thinkstation S30 (what it
would be if it weren't a frankenputer) for around $200.

Main reason I have Silver and Fireball rather than just using the Dells
is that said Dells (3 alike) are the small cases, with zero room for a
2nd HD, so while they're fine for secondary, not so good for everyday.
All about the same speed, tho.

USB 3; not sure if need 3.1 but expansion slots are good. "Plenty" of
USB 2 and USB 3 ports (front panel too!, or at least the option -- have
an expansion panel card).

It's nice to have a few onboard but external hubs kinda negate the need
for dozens stuck to the board. <g>

Gigabit LAN.

Even my 10 year old boards have this! but a couple of the onboard NICs
have died, and been replaced by a $10 gigabit card.

Video -- separate card is fine though if a decent onboard one; HDMI over
DVI because of the monitor (can use an adapter). Audio I'm connecting
to the audio out as goes into the amp and bookshelf speakers. Could use
an extractor.

Whether you get onboard video depends on the chipset and CPU (frex, the
one in Silver does not support onboard). Everything except maybe some
server boards have onboard audio now.

I use whatever cheap random video card has both DVI and VGA, and is
fanless, cuz I got tired of those dinky little fans whining and dying.
Onboard video is usually good enough now that if it's present, I don't
bother with anything else. (Except for the older Dell quadcore ... for
some stupid reason only allows 8mb RAM for onboard video, which is no
longer enough.)

Also probably/eventually a second monitor so if integrated video that
little detail.

I keep meaning to do this, and never have. *sigh*

I like free expansion ports, mainly for the option when upgrading -- so
if a PCIe16 is used for the video card a 'spare' PCIe16 is a plus.

Yeah, even if they don't all support 16x, it's nice to have the extra
slots, as you can use 'em for an m.2 adapter card, an SAS adapter card,
or various other add-ons. Also, having only one is usually a sign of
corner cutting. Better boards usually have three, tho only two may be
16x. Also nice to still have that PCI slot for older stuff.

So anything in the $79.99 and under bin?! <bseg>

You can pick up a Dell Optiplex 9xxx for little or nothing, as a
complete system. Perfectly good if you only need one HD (or two 2.5"
with an adapter). I have three cuz my sister's office threw 'em out.
Probably the single most common corporate system ... and discard.

One of 'em runs Win7, another PCLinuxOS, the third has variously been a Hackintosh (everything worked out of the box, except for network, and I
didn't even bother installing drivers) and a couple variants of Win10
and Server2008.

Oh, did I mention how Win10 got on my permanent bad list? was using a
portable install for benchmarking (see above) and after I went back to
the regular OS, discovered that Win10 had NUKED the partition table on
the USB-connected HD. Win10 will never, ever again be allowed to touch a production machine. (Fortunately all the data was backed up, or rather
had been randomly copied to other locations already because that HD is
older than dirt, but it's still annoying.)

Unfortunately appears I learned the hard way too. AMD isn't bad, just
isn't quite fitting with my needs/usage.

Well, let's just say with AMD you get what you pay for. <g>

KM> Well, they DO support cheaper type RAM, but you can't use it with
KM> anything else!

Maybe there's a reason for that?!

Support for single-sided RAM. Dunno why, other than possibly still using
some very old code, and more likely because single-sided can do better
on raw benchmarks. However word around is that even AMDs get better
realworld performance with double-sided RAM.

KM> lose anything? I've been dragging around the same Utilities
KM> directory for a dozen systems now; there are probably still DOS
KM> utils from the 1980s in there...

The "loose something" is the vague concept of differences between the
AMD version and the Intel version. Of course the to me slightly sloppy
and confusing use of "amd64" and "i386" terms: really is 64 bit and 32
bit respectively, but a newbie would probably think "AMD" and "Intel".

Oh. No, it's not AMD vs Intel, nor 32bit vs 64bit CPU. However, as to
whether it'll run those utils... it's not the CPU, it's the OS. 64bit OS generally will not run 16bit, but will run 32bit. This is why I have
WinXP in a VM on the Win7-64 box (and the PCLOS box) -- so I can run a
couple of irreplaceable 16bit DOS apps.

And I don't know what idiot decided they should be called "AMD64" and
"x86". Someone who liked confusing newbs, I guess!

> indicate the port is connected: the USB 2 scanner is blue, the USB 3
> external HDD is blue, the dead metal thumbdrive I'm using as a ground
KM> WTF??

<Mr. Rogers voice> Can you say 'idiot lights'? I thought you could!

I did not know that idiots blinked. <g>

> mentioned about a concern of moving the pipes holding the cooling liquid
> too much and cracking, thus leaking. (Was he talking about the same

Uh?? water-cooled system? cuz ordinary "heat pipes" contain powdered
metal (as I understand it).

Yes, I sort of miss the Super XT just because it so upgraded. The
original Laser (brand of computer) motherboard could do a lot more than
the original CPU, hard drive, etc. allowed.

Yeah, I'm sorry I gave away my own Super XT -- had every upgrade you can
think of except for an IDE HD, and that coulda been done (somewhere I
have an 8bit IDE card, and an IDE HD that needs Very Old to work). It
even had VGA!

The system I'm on now is an Asus M5A97 R2.0 motherboard with an AMD

That's basically the older cousin of Silver's "new" board: https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/P9X79_LE/

FX-8320 cpu running at -- umm - fast. 3.1 or 3.2 GHz comes to mind but

Passmark says 3.5GHz with 4.0GHz turbo.

not sure off-hand. 32 GB of RAM but never seen it get above 8 -- sort
of thinking in a new system I probably would go with the option of 32
again but just install 16 - so maybe take half out of this one for it to
use and the new system would have the other half.

Yeah, depends what you're doing. The nice thing about lots of RAM is
being able to give a VM enough for good performance, without choking the
host OS to death.

The SSD is I think 120 GB. The original plan was to split the card in
Hard drive is 3 TB -- waaaay too much but better than running out! At

I won't run out for a while, since the Giant Server came with eight 3TB
SAS drives. Fireball supports SAS onboard, and I have an SAS card so
won't even need to cannibalize the server for its card to use 'em. And
of course junk fills the space allotted. <g>

this point still a little uncomfortable with the solid state drives,
though not enough to not use as a boot device ==> if fails can boot from
a DVD or thumbdrive. OTOH is the data drive fails one is an outta-luck-
duck and has the fun of recovering from condensed-format files from the backup NAS in the basement.

Ugh!

OK, so that's that system. There's the MythTV backend system, the
various systems downstairs......

I understand this problem. <g>

If linux would be more graceful about networking, instead of only
letting me read/write apparently at random... I'd probably put it on
Fireball. As it is... I finally gave up, and when PCLOS needs something
off the network, I fire up the WinXP VM, which has no problem whatever
with reading and writing to any other system.

Part of the need for the thumbdrive recovery utilties was I had purchased several 'blue' 16 GB thumbdrives from an on-line company with which I've
had good experiencs, name-brand thumbdrives. Bought the blue version
because liked the colour. Some time later similar offer, decide to go
with the gold version -- no reason other than quick distinguishing: I
have <this> on the blue one and <that> on the yellow. The yellow ones
though spec'd the same as the original blue ones are junk -- most failed quickly. I would have returned/RMA'd except would have cost what I paid
for to ship back -- how come they can ship to me in an envelope packet
and I have to use a box? So that brand has been blackballed by me.

Let me guess, those AData drives for which I found all the bad reviews. <g>

KM> Was astonished to see XP64 immediately phone home and download
KM> 1.5GB worth of updates!!

Uh, yeah! Especially as 'no longer supported'!

That's what I thought!! Server OS, sort of, tho...

I've got a motherboard or two with similar indications. To me fine as helpful. The first motherboard I had with the "hey! I may not be on but
the power cord is stil plugged in" LED I thought was a good idea.

Yeah, the RAM-is-HOT LED is a very good idea.

> As for the LEDs on the RAM, not sure what they would indicate other than
> "bein' purdy". I'm running 6.1 GB usage right now -- and that usage line
> is usually White Sands Proving Grounds flat -- boooooorrrrrinnnnng!
KM> Purdy apparently is it. How the heck are you using 6.1GB RAM??

"Easily" as now at 6.8.
LibreOffice 355 MB (6 or 7 open documents)

I am supposed to be fixing the document LibreOffice munged... turns out
when it manages to run CPU up to 100%, it also garbages up the document
ON DISK EVEN IF YOU DON'T SAVE.

I don't mind spending money when necessary, but usually the brand-new
stuff is "overpriced" and the price comes down shortly. Also the new technology is unproven, so has several links to work out. Also

Yeah, let someone else shed the blood!

generally noot too much works with the new technology -- as the tagline
says, "Who did the owner of the first modem talk to?".

LOL!

> You've seen the picture on the Internet of someone using a box fan to
> cool their computer! (Open case.)
KM> No, but that's how I repaired a friend's Mac... only needed a new
KM> PSU fan... PSU was *riveted* inside the case. Let's just let it
KM> hang open instead...

Well the good news is it probably won't loosen during shipping!!

Haha, or any other time... minor problem? Buy whole new monkey!

Many-many-MANY moons ago the store had a vendor for the iMacs -- the
ones that came in bright colours (blue, orange, lime green) and were all-in-one: CRT + motherboard + power supply + whatever else in the
somewhat egg-shaped case. Vendor ran his own shop and also repaired the

I have personally seen one of those catch fire (well, start putting out copious smoke, tho it was unplugged before flames erupted) just from overheating as it admired its navel.

IBM compatibles -- we discussed as I was interested in learning more so
I could sell them better, plus maybe getting one. Decent units, just
not a good fit for me as I liked to be able to go inside to upgrade and
do my own repairs -- IIRC the PSU was encased in epoxy, no way to
upgrade except through the USB ports, etc.

Apple makes walled-garden stuff, that's the whole idea.

> > > Why it's so dark out?!
> > KM> The light all prismed away!
> > I'll have to reflect on that!
> KM> I don't see anything. Is it dark?
> Do you have your eyelids open? Ah! your hands are in front of your eyes!
KM> How can I tell? It's dark!
Ah! I forgot you're not where one is surrounded by the glow of the city lights! Here it's like living with a giant night light!

Heh.. I'm just across the river from the refinery. I have full-time big glowies!
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Hi Ky!

HI! <g>

("Can you hear me now"?!)

> KM> both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so
> KM> guess which I did. <g>
> Ummm....! <g> Set the RAM correctly!
KM> You win a banana!
Sometimes it pays to monkey around!!

Too much monkey business here <g>

Does that mean you're going bananas?!

KM> I believe I have now done so. Will come from rez at doomgold dot
KM> com. (Stable address since I own the domain.) And how did you
KM> know tomorrow is my birthday? :D (Well, today by when you read
KM> this!)
Yeah, and you're still a year younger than I am! So um, yeah, the RAM

I should have more respect! <g>

Just play the Aretha Franklin song a few more times....

will be your birthday present! Just a little late because of, um...
ah... you didn't tell me what you wanted until the last minute!!

I didn't know I was getting older til the last minute <g>

It's that last minute you have to worry about: then you stop getting
older!

Did receive the e-mail and your address; will probably send out Thursday when I go grocery shopping. Will let you know for certain.

Soon enough! I'll put off eating the birthday cake too. Actually
I won't have a choice, cuz I didn't make one. :D

Maybe your doigs will come up with something for you!

> Yuuhhhhhp: I've been semi-sorta on the lookout for a good Intel-based
> motherboard and CPU based on all this; what you just said pretty much
KM> So what exactly are you looking for?
That's part of the problem: I don't know! And I sort of combine 'CPU'
with "Motherboard" as know they have to be compatible though can be

Yeah, with the million options it's nice to know up front they
work together.

Seemed like more to me -- maybe I lost track and recounted some or broke
a category down and counted the differences inside.

I sort of buy by exclusion: don't want integrated video, if there are
slots for 32 GB of RAM probably better than 'just' 16 (I might choose to install just 16 GB but having the option seems to indicate better design), etc.....

bought separately. Fast -- I do not like waiting for the CPU to scratch it's head. This system boots via a SSD and the data is on a HDD.

That's how I decided to do things too -- boot and programs on the
SSD, data on spinning rust. And decided to add the cheapest NVMe
(on a PCIe adapter card, cuz no support on the motherboard) I
could lay hands on for email and swapfile and VM images, because
those are the really big files that I'm tired of waiting for.

The current AMD (oh yeah: did you read where Linus Torvalds' latest
computer is AMD!) seems to load sufficiently fast for those: I sometimes
wait for the DSL to catch up when someone sends a video clip attachment.
The only VM I consistently use is the one for Windows XP and it seems
almost all of the wait time is in the Windows portion.

Current CPU is a (AMD) FX-8320 -- eight cores, I think 3.2 GHz though couldn't find the speed quickly. Not sure if I really need 8 cores.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-8320+Eight-Core&id
=1782

(Do I really want to know?!) ...Huh: I'm towards the bottom of the
list! Of cours,e the CPU is a few years old and they're probbaly
comparing it to newer ones.

I'll have to look around the site more later -- the System area looked potentially interesting though didn't spend enough time there ==> used
the Virtual Windows XP Firefox (ESR) which is a bit sluggish due to the
32 bit VM.

Faster than a quad-core, but only a bit over half as fast as a
low-end i7. So... for faster, but not too pricey, you probably
want something in a late-generation i7. Something like:

Will check out later - thanks for the leads!

My i7 CPUs are only 3rd and 4th generation, so a bit 'slow'
compared to current, but they are 5-6 years old, too... old
enough that all but Silver's are corporate discards. Silver's
"new" CPU+board came from eBay for $200, and only that much
because in its day it was a fairly high-end motherboard, and this
model is still in some demand due to also supporting Xeon CPUs
and server RAM.

For my Computer Room systems (so excluding Frontend computers primarily
for MythTV) I try to purchase something with a high speed and the
ability to be expanded. LIS, I'm not one for waiting (yes, a bit
impatient when I know I don't need to be waiting). Also know I don't
build new too often so go for something towards top of the line
(relatively), update with daughtercards as required, and let it wear
out.

Main reason I have Silver and Fireball rather than just using the
Dells is that said Dells (3 alike) are the small cases, with zero
room for a 2nd HD, so while they're fine for secondary, not so
good for everyday. All about the same speed, tho.

I've sort of ignored Dells as for my use they seem to have limitiations/ restrictions. SFF of any brand pretty much get excluded: limits the
video card options. (Dells seem to be a good computer, just for what I
need here not a good fit.)

USB 3; not sure if need 3.1 but expansion slots are good. "Plenty" of
USB 2 and USB 3 ports (front panel too!, or at least the option -- have
an expansion panel card).

It's nice to have a few onboard but external hubs kinda negate
the need for dozens stuck to the board. <g>

True: keyboard - 1, mouse - 2, UPS - 3, external hub - 4 -- so at least
4 USB 2's and 1 USB 3. That's rear panel ports; front panel at least
one each for convenience --I've pretty much always stuck the thumbdrive
into the front panel rather than the hub - guess just used to doing it
that way, plus right now the hub is in the computer desk hutch on the
left side and not nearly as convenient as swivelling the chair.

Gigabit LAN.

Even my 10 year old boards have this! but a couple of the onboard
NICs have died, and been replaced by a $10 gigabit card.

Yes, not a rarity, just have seen some systems offered at 10/100.
Figure if they're cheating there they're cheating other places.

Video -- separate card is fine though if a decent onboard one; HDMI over
DVI because of the monitor (can use an adapter). Audio I'm connecting
to the audio out as goes into the amp and bookshelf speakers. Could use
an extractor.

Whether you get onboard video depends on the chipset and CPU
(frex, the one in Silver does not support onboard). Everything
except maybe some server boards have onboard audio now.

Most of the systems I've glanced at do have on-board video with decent
specs. Just something to verify, like the Gigabit Ethernet port.

I use whatever cheap random video card has both DVI and VGA, and
is fanless, cuz I got tired of those dinky little fans whining
and dying. Onboard video is usually good enough now that if it's
present, I don't bother with anything else. (Except for the older
Dell quadcore ... for some stupid reason only allows 8mb RAM for
onboard video, which is no longer enough.)

I think 8 MB barely does VGA!

Yes, fanless seems the way to go. Besides quiter just one less thing to
go wrong. Make sure the case circulation is sufficient, of course.

Also probably/eventually a second monitor so if integrated video that
little detail.

I keep meaning to do this, and never have. *sigh*

I have and haven't (!). The problem here is the desk has a hutch which
is removeable but then there goes shelf space. The monitor is in the
monitor cubbyhole -- originally designed for a CRT but fortunately nice
an wide (maybe for speakers though holes for speaker wires on the side shelves), and I have the monitor shoved in most of the way -- the second monitor was either at the left or right at a close to 45ø neck swivel,
plus almost a foot closer visually. The extra visual space was nice,
just not quite working out physically.

I do have the old LCD monitor mounted to the wall above the right side
of the desk. It gets used mostly for setting up Raspberry Pis, while
working on other computers at the 'workbench' area (wireless keyboard
and mouse), etc.

I like free expansion ports, mainly for the option when upgrading -- so
if a PCIe16 is used for the video card a 'spare' PCIe16 is a plus.

Yeah, even if they don't all support 16x, it's nice to have the
extra slots, as you can use 'em for an m.2 adapter card, an SAS
adapter card, or various other add-ons. Also, having only one is
usually a sign of corner cutting. Better boards usually have
three, tho only two may be 16x. Also nice to still have that PCI
slot for older stuff.

Right. A sparcity of expansion slots can be another indicator of taking short-cuts.


...Took a bit of a break to refill the coffee and remembered why I sort
of excluded Dells from my searches years ago: couldn't find the specs.
Well, found rather generic ones but along the lines of "PSU 250 W to
1000W, depending on the model", "video out HDMI, DVI, DP or something
else depending on the model".... OK, not nearly that bad!

So anything in the $79.99 and under bin?! <bseg>

You can pick up a Dell Optiplex 9xxx for little or nothing, as a
complete system. Perfectly good if you only need one HD (or two
2.5" with an adapter). I have three cuz my sister's office threw
'em out. Probably the single most common corporate system ... and
discard.

Yes, seems a lot of businesses use Dells because they can be
inexpensively customized. They seem to be very good machines, just for
my particular after-market type needs......

One of 'em runs Win7, another PCLinuxOS, the third has variously
been a Hackintosh (everything worked out of the box, except for
network, and I didn't even bother installing drivers) and a
couple variants of Win10 and Server2008.

As I recall you hvre more of a business support requirement so the
specific-OS per machine makes sense. I just do the heavy-duty
hobbbyist stuff.

Oh, did I mention how Win10 got on my permanent bad list? was
using a portable install for benchmarking (see above) and after I
went back to the regular OS, discovered that Win10 had NUKED the
partition table on the USB-connected HD. Win10 will never, ever
again be allowed to touch a production machine. (Fortunately all
the data was backed up, or rather had been randomly copied to
other locations already because that HD is older than dirt, but
it's still annoying.)

And I think "annoying" may have been a severe understatement! IMO no
reason for any OS to automatically assume to do something without
permission. One thing to upgrade definitions for security, but never-
ever do something to the rest of the hard drive much less an attached
device without my specific approval

Unfortunately appears I learned the hard way too. AMD isn't bad, just
isn't quite fitting with my needs/usage.

Well, let's just say with AMD you get what you pay for. <g>

True for anything. Wasn't so much low cost as the motherboard was
touted to be very good and as it used AMD that's what it got.
...Actually was a 'kit': MB + CPU + RAM + maybe some other stuff - has
been ages.

KM> Well, they DO support cheaper type RAM, but you can't use it with
KM> anything else!
Maybe there's a reason for that?!

Support for single-sided RAM. Dunno why, other than possibly
still using some very old code, and more likely because
single-sided can do better on raw benchmarks. However word around
is that even AMDs get better realworld performance with
double-sided RAM.

I haven't really paid attention other than matched pairs. ...Hmmm:
wonder if that was the problem with a old Lenovo system I have? It can
take 8 GB (4x 2GB) but I could only install 6GB. Refused to boot with
8GB (2+2+2+2), was happy with 6 (2+2+1+1). Both of the 2GB pairs were
fine alone (so 4 GB). I don't recall the specifics on the RAM --
originally came with 3 1GB; ordered probably Crucial for the 4 2GB
sticks so should have worked.

KM> lose anything? I've been dragging around the same Utilities
KM> directory for a dozen systems now; there are probably still DOS
KM> utils from the 1980s in there...
The "loose something" is the vague concept of differences between the
AMD version and the Intel version. Of course the to me slightly sloppy
and confusing use of "amd64" and "i386" terms: really is 64 bit and 32
bit respectively, but a newbie would probably think "AMD" and "Intel".

Oh. No, it's not AMD vs Intel, nor 32bit vs 64bit CPU. However,
as to whether it'll run those utils... it's not the CPU, it's the
OS. 64bit OS generally will not run 16bit, but will run 32bit.
This is why I have WinXP in a VM on the Win7-64 box (and the
PCLOS box) -- so I can run a couple of irreplaceable 16bit DOS
apps.

Right: sort of using the same words to describe different things. ...

And I don't know what idiot decided they should be called "AMD64"
and "x86". Someone who liked confusing newbs, I guess!

As you said, can be rather confusing: "but this one has an 'i' and my
system is 'Intel' and this one says 'amd' which matches "AMD", but...". Someone must have been having a mean day when naming!

> indicate the port is connected: the USB 2 scanner is blue, the USB 3
> external HDD is blue, the dead metal thumbdrive I'm using as a ground
KM> WTF??
<Mr. Rogers voice> Can you say 'idiot lights'? I thought you could!

I did not know that idiots blinked. <g>

We even -- um, they even get dry eyes!

> mentioned about a concern of moving the pipes holding the cooling liquid
> too much and cracking, thus leaking. (Was he talking about the same

Uh?? water-cooled system? cuz ordinary "heat pipes" contain
powdered metal (as I understand it).

Yes, I sort of miss the Super XT just because it so upgraded. The
original Laser (brand of computer) motherboard could do a lot more than
the original CPU, hard drive, etc. allowed.

Yeah, I'm sorry I gave away my own Super XT -- had every upgrade
you can think of except for an IDE HD, and that coulda been done (somewhere I have an 8bit IDE card, and an IDE HD that needs Very
Old to work). It even had VGA!

Yup: mine's downstairs in the basement -- not necessarily the best place
for storage -- as I couldn't bare to get rid of it at the time. Don't
recall what's in it hardware-wise currently. Do recall some was moved
to the 486DX2/66 system.

The system I'm on now is an Asus M5A97 R2.0 motherboard with an AMD

That's basically the older cousin of Silver's "new" board: https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/P9X79_LE/

FX-8320 cpu running at -- umm - fast. 3.1 or 3.2 GHz comes to mind but

Passmark says 3.5GHz with 4.0GHz turbo.

So probably 3.5 GHz. lscpu says max MHz is 3500.0000 MHz, min 1400.000;
I know I don't 'do' coverclocking just because it makes more sense to
have the right item in the first place, and running at maximum doesn't
allow for more. Seems 'Settings > Details > About' used to give the
speed but doesn't now.

not sure off-hand. 32 GB of RAM but never seen it get above 8 -- sort
of thinking in a new system I probably would go with the option of 32
again but just install 16 - so maybe take half out of this one for it to
use and the new system would have the other half.

Yeah, depends what you're doing. The nice thing about lots of RAM
is being able to give a VM enough for good performance, without
choking the host OS to death.

Right. I know originally I had to give the Windows XP VM more RAM as it
was very sluggish. Don't recall the numbers but increasing what was
available to the Virtual Machine helped and didn't subtract from the
real machine.

The SSD is I think 120 GB. The original plan was to split the card in
Hard drive is 3 TB -- waaaay too much but better than running out! At

I won't run out for a while, since the Giant Server came with
eight 3TB SAS drives. Fireball supports SAS onboard, and I have
an SAS card so won't even need to cannibalize the server for its
card to use 'em. And of course junk fills the space allotted. <g>

It is not 'junk' as long as it has potential for use!

The NSA downstairs (in the basement) has 5 TB of storage (started with
2, added a 3 TB -- should have upgraded the original for a total of 6
but...).

this point still a little uncomfortable with the solid state drives,
though not enough to not use as a boot device ==> if fails can boot from
a DVD or thumbdrive. OTOH is the data drive fails one is an outta-luck- duck and has the fun of recovering from condensed-format files from the backup NAS in the basement.

Ugh!

Really. If/when that heppens will be glad for the backup under any
format -- just will take a while to recover. ...Better to be able to
recover than not!

OK, so that's that system. There's the MythTV backend system, the
various systems downstairs......

I understand this problem. <g>

Glad someone does! <g>

If linux would be more graceful about networking, instead of only
letting me read/write apparently at random... I'd probably put it
on Fireball. As it is... I finally gave up, and when PCLOS needs
something off the network, I fire up the WinXP VM, which has no
problem whatever with reading and writing to any other system.

It seems Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 (haven't played with 20.04 yet) tend to
be 'protective' of themselves and to some degree the networked
computers. Accessing remote systems on the LAN requires the username
and password so I've used 'sshpass' for some of the scripting and
mounting others' media. ...Not really an answer to what you need but
maybe an idea of what's needed.

Part of the need for the thumbdrive recovery utilties was I had purchased several 'blue' 16 GB thumbdrives from an on-line company with which I've
had good experiencs, name-brand thumbdrives. Bought the blue version because liked the colour. Some time later similar offer, decide to go
with the gold version -- no reason other than quick distinguishing: I
have <this> on the blue one and <that> on the yellow. The yellow ones though spec'd the same as the original blue ones are junk -- most failed quickly. I would have returned/RMA'd except would have cost what I paid
for to ship back -- how come they can ship to me in an envelope packet
and I have to use a box? So that brand has been blackballed by me.

Let me guess, those AData drives for which I found all the bad
reviews. <g>

Gee you're good!!

KM> Was astonished to see XP64 immediately phone home and download
KM> 1.5GB worth of updates!!
Uh, yeah! Especially as 'no longer supported'!

That's what I thought!! Server OS, sort of, tho...

Yes, briefly thought of that possibility as to why. There are 'tons' of different versions. My original XP had "Windows Media Edition", I
don't think the Virtual Machine liked it because it was 64-bit (I think)
and for some reason could only create a 32-bit Virtual Machine, yet
there seems to be a 64-bit option. Got it to be happy and work -- good
enough for what I need!

I've got a motherboard or two with similar indications. To me fine as helpful. The first motherboard I had with the "hey! I may not be on but
the power cord is stil plugged in" LED I thought was a good idea.

Yeah, the RAM-is-HOT LED is a very good idea.

Agree! Easy enough to forget the system is still plugged in and so
powered even though the fans are off.

> As for the LEDs on the RAM, not sure what they would indicate other than
> "bein' purdy". I'm running 6.1 GB usage right now -- and that usage

ine

> is usually White Sands Proving Grounds flat -- boooooorrrrrinnnnng!
KM> Purdy apparently is it. How the heck are you using 6.1GB RAM??

"Easily" as now at 6.8.
LibreOffice 355 MB (6 or 7 open documents)

I am supposed to be fixing the document LibreOffice munged...
turns out when it manages to run CPU up to 100%, it also garbages
up the document ON DISK EVEN IF YOU DON'T SAVE.

What did you do??!! I've got eight open LibreOffice documents currently
open (don't ask why! <g>), the CPU cores running under 30% (most in the
single digits -- they keep swapping around); do have 'mysterious pulses'
of activity, some coordinate with the BBS screensaver in the Virtual
Machine.

I have mananged to lock up this machine (the Linux one) and LibreOffice
on rebooting will ask if I want to recover the documents which were open
-- yes, and does. There have been times when the document is no longer
there -- open a PPS from an e-mail -- and I get an error but the rest
open fine. I don't recall a document being corrupted.

I don't mind spending money when necessary, but usually the brand-new
stuff is "overpriced" and the price comes down shortly. Also the new technology is unproven, so has several links to work out. Also

Yeah, let someone else shed the blood!

I don't like bleeding green!

generally noot too much works with the new technology -- as the tagline says, "Who did the owner of the first modem talk to?".

LOL!

I'll admit to being scorched a few times: recalling a misunderstood or
didn't quite understand USB 3.1 so got a front panel unit and the
connector didn't fit (saw that as soon as removed from the box).

> You've seen the picture on the Internet of someone using a box fan to
> cool their computer! (Open case.)
KM> No, but that's how I repaired a friend's Mac... only needed a new
KM> PSU fan... PSU was *riveted* inside the case. Let's just let it
KM> hang open instead...
Well the good news is it probably won't loosen during shipping!!

Haha, or any other time... minor problem? Buy whole new monkey!

Many-many-MANY moons ago the store had a vendor for the iMacs -- the
ones that came in bright colours (blue, orange, lime green) and were all-in-one: CRT + motherboard + power supply + whatever else in the
somewhat egg-shaped case. Vendor ran his own shop and also repaired the

I have personally seen one of those catch fire (well, start
putting out copious smoke, tho it was unplugged before flames
erupted) just from overheating as it admired its navel.

To me it would seem encasing anything heat-producing would not be a good
idea.

IBM compatibles -- we discussed as I was interested in learning more so
I could sell them better, plus maybe getting one. Decent units, just
not a good fit for me as I liked to be able to go inside to upgrade and
do my own repairs -- IIRC the PSU was encased in epoxy, no way to
upgrade except through the USB ports, etc.

Apple makes walled-garden stuff, that's the whole idea.

I must be a Burger King kind of guy: make it my way!

> > > Why it's so dark out?!
> > KM> The light all prismed away!
> > I'll have to reflect on that!
> KM> I don't see anything. Is it dark?
> Do you have your eyelids open? Ah! your hands are in front of your eyes!
KM> How can I tell? It's dark!
Ah! I forgot you're not where one is surrounded by the glow of the city lights! Here it's like living with a giant night light!

Heh.. I'm just across the river from the refinery. I have
full-time big glowies!

Upriver a few miles is the Cordova (IL) nuclear plant, downriver about a
mile is the Rock Island Aresenal. If something happens I'll be blown up
one way or another!!

(Hmm: my editor is telling me 549 lines of text. Suppose should split
some time before hitting a thousand!



¯ ®
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¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


... The average is just as close to the bottom as it is the top.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Current CPU is a (AMD) FX-8320 -- eight cores, I think 3.2 GHz though couldn't find the speed quickly. Not sure if I really need 8 cores.

Apparently it's actually four cores with AMD's answer to hyperthreading,
not really a true 8-core. (Leave it to AMD to exaggerate their merits;
doesn't surprise me in the least. Makes me wonder about their new "32
core" Ryzen.)

Here's Phil's Computer Lab on its slightly more upscale cousin --
everything should apply to yours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp27f0GJc-8
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Hi Ky!

Current CPU is a (AMD) FX-8320 -- eight cores, I think 3.2 GHz though couldn't find the speed quickly. Not sure if I really need 8 cores.

Apparently it's actually four cores with AMD's answer to
hyperthreading, not really a true 8-core. (Leave it to AMD to
exaggerate their merits; doesn't surprise me in the least. Makes
me wonder about their new "32 core" Ryzen.)

Yes, during my 'research' to figure out why Ubuntu 18.04 wasn't
installing (ended up being a faulty RAM stick, UEFI settings, IOMMI -
I've get a letter or two in that last one wrong - the setting to get USB working) I found out AMD used one core as two, plus the motherboard manufacturer either just assumed from the numbers the CPU would work or
fudged the results a bit.

I did sort of have to violate the "fool me once" rule as after
downgrading from a 125W processor to a 90W one what was I going to do
with the old CPU? Sell it on eBay and would be at a loss as I still
needed a CPU and motherboard, so ended up getting a motherboard to 'fit'
the hot processor and the 'cooler'version of the processor to fit the motherboard.

Here's Phil's Computer Lab on its slightly more upscale cousin -- everything should apply to yours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp27f0GJc-8

Interesting - thanks! I also watched a suggested video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W-MUCqYEJA -- both mostly gaming considerations which I don't do, though to me (so potentially wrong
thinking) do watch videos ==> MythTV for TV shows, some YouTube videos,
etc. ...Did glance at my PSensor display -- have just the CPU one
displaying and it went up as high as 10øF from when I started. To be
fair I was also downloading the videos using dwhelper, which does take
some processing power.



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¯ ®


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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

Think this was originally in the other message but morphed into other
areas. Anyway, remember me typing about issues here with the system
locking up sometimes when I plug a thumbdrive or rarely other USB device
into the computer? I think the problem isn't with the USB
ports/circuits but more with the way the motherboard/something reacts to static electricity.

Had touched the side of the case (metal) and 'snap!' from the discharge
and the system froze. Happened several times. Originally may have had
a 'false positive' with the thumbdrive (USB port) as may not have noted
the static electric spark as through the thumbdrive rather than my
finger.

In ages past I was gifted an otherwise useful system that would randomly reboot when touched, or sometimes when someone merely walked past. There seemed no real pattern to it, as sometimes happened, sometimes didn't.

Eventually determined that there was a flaw in the case design -- the slightest vibration, if from the right direction, would cause the
motherboard to touch metal and short out. Moved it to a different case,
and it ran stable ever after. (It is still in The Closet, tho a P233 is
no longer useful *sigh* but could not bring myself to discard a Tyan motherboard.)

Now I'm wondering if your USB connection has a short in there somewhere.

Or if maybe the internal ground is loose, perhaps on the USB connection
to the mainboard.
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Hi Ky!

<Lockup issues with static, USB>

In ages past I was gifted an otherwise useful system that would
randomly reboot when touched, or sometimes when someone merely
walked past. There seemed no real pattern to it, as sometimes
happened, sometimes didn't.
Eventually determined that there was a flaw in the case design --
the slightest vibration, if from the right direction, would cause
the motherboard to touch metal and short out. Moved it to a
different case, and it ran stable ever after. (It is still in The
Closet, tho a P233 is no longer useful *sigh* but could not bring
myself to discard a Tyan motherboard.)
Now I'm wondering if your USB connection has a short in there
somewhere.
Or if maybe the internal ground is loose, perhaps on the USB
connection to the mainboard.

Hmmm... Possibility. A static discharge to the case could still jump
to the USB section, just looks like a different/another problem. Right
now trying to figure out where to begin other than an almost complete
rebuild. ...Suppose the first thing would be to open the case and see
if anything looks wrong. Let things 'sit' a while and see if I remember anything which didn't seem to go as should during construction -- like something having to be forced.


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¯ ®


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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> Or if maybe the internal ground is loose, perhaps on the USB
KM> connection to the mainboard.

Hmmm... Possibility. A static discharge to the case could still jump
to the USB section, just looks like a different/another problem. Right
now trying to figure out where to begin other than an almost complete rebuild. ...Suppose the first thing would be to open the case and see
if anything looks wrong. Let things 'sit' a while and see if I remember anything which didn't seem to go as should during construction -- like something having to be forced.

Might be nothing you can see, unfortunately. Broken spot in a trace,
loose wire up inside a port... who knows....
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> Might be nothing you can see, unfortunately. Broken spot in a
KM> trace, loose wire up inside a port... who knows....

Right: plus bad solder joint - could be literally anything anywhere.
Opening the case to look for anything obvious is probably as far as I'd
go: not going to look at the board with a magnifying glass - probably
one the sandwiched type and the problem is in a middle layer!

With the Asus P5B-Deluxe board (like mine where USB quit and voltage
measured by the board was low) ... turns out it's a design problem with
the southbridge wiring. Evidently it slowly cooks the relevant
capacitors, and eventually, USB fails, tho the rest of the board keeps working.
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Hi Ky!

KM> Might be nothing you can see, unfortunately. Broken spot in a
KM> trace, loose wire up inside a port... who knows....
Right: plus bad solder joint - could be literally anything anywhere.
Opening the case to look for anything obvious is probably as far as I'd
go: not going to look at the board with a magnifying glass - probably
one the sandwiched type and the problem is in a middle layer!

With the Asus P5B-Deluxe board (like mine where USB quit and
voltage measured by the board was low) ... turns out it's a
design problem with the southbridge wiring. Evidently it slowly
cooks the relevant capacitors, and eventually, USB fails, tho the
rest of the board keeps working.

Oh goodie! ASUSTek here, so the same company. (Some do sound similar
so checked.) OTTOMH I don't know what Northbridge and Southbridge do --
one of those Black Box things.

In Northbridge/Southbridge chipset architecture designs, the Southbridge
is the chip that controls all of the computers I/O functions, such as
USB, audio, serial, the system BIOS, the ISA bus, the interrupt
controller and the IDE channels. In other words, all of the functions of
a processor except memory, PCI and AGP.

By that sounds like if the Southbridge goes one just has a bunch of parts
on a big printed circuit board. Any suggestions as to what to watch for/starts to occur when the thing starts to fail?


And as a FWIW I did finally replace the 'AMD-approved' heat sink and fan assembly with a Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO; CPU now running a lot
cooler. Highest I've seen (per PSensor) is 112, maybe 118øF (44-48øC)
-- old heat sink and fan would get up to 180ø ==> could use the CD/DVD
tray to hold my mug and the CPU to warm up the water for my coffee and
tea! The 'USB sensitivity' is less but then it's May and the humidity
is more and seems that has always helped the problem.



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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
KM> With the Asus P5B-Deluxe board (like mine where USB quit and
KM> voltage measured by the board was low) ... turns out it's a
KM> design problem with the southbridge wiring. Evidently it slowly
KM> cooks the relevant capacitors, and eventually, USB fails, tho the
KM> rest of the board keeps working.

Oh goodie! ASUSTek here, so the same company. (Some do sound similar
so checked.) OTTOMH I don't know what Northbridge and Southbridge do --
one of those Black Box things.

Yeah... not thrilled with Asus, but a bunch of 'em have followed me
home, so....

In Northbridge/Southbridge chipset architecture designs, the Southbridge
is the chip that controls all of the computers I/O functions, such as
USB, audio, serial, the system BIOS, the ISA bus, the interrupt
controller and the IDE channels. In other words, all of the functions of
a processor except memory, PCI and AGP.

By that sounds like if the Southbridge goes one just has a bunch of parts
on a big printed circuit board. Any suggestions as to what to watch for/starts to occur when the thing starts to fail?

USB quits? :)

I suppose some "hard drive fails" might also be southbridge.

And as a FWIW I did finally replace the 'AMD-approved' heat sink and fan assembly with a Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO; CPU now running a lot
cooler. Highest I've seen (per PSensor) is 112, maybe 118øF (44-48øC)

Yeah, the stock AMD heatsinks are junk. I replaced the stock aluminum
HSF on Westworld with an Adaptec-branded solid copper HSF, and CPU temp dropped significantly.

I have a second one and would like to replace the HSF on Double Vision,
but the socket is just a wee bit off shape and can't get it to seat. And
no longer matters, as 1) it's socket939 and tho it desperately needs a
CPU upgrade, they're too expensive, and 2) I'd forgotten til I banged
into it the other day, but this was AMD's class of supposedly-x64 CPUs
that won't reliably run a 64bit OS (apparently does not actually do
64bit I/O). And I don't know how far up the CPU chain the bug continued.
(AMD had a similar bug back in the K5/K6 era, where the 32bit CPU could
not do 32bit I/O. Windows would run, linux would not.)

Westworld: Asus M2N68-AM Plus with Phenom II X4 840
Double Vision: Asus A8N-SLI with Athlon 64 3200+ (Venice)

DV will run ReactOS, and sorta runs Mint (not well), but so far have not gotten ANY other OS to run reliably. Bunch of us over on LQ forum have
had similar problems with same board and CPU family, so.. it's a Thing.

Westworld's CPU is supposedly faster than any quadcore. In Real Life
it's about 40% slower. AMD does not impress, repeatedly.

-- old heat sink and fan would get up to 180ø ==> could use the CD/DVD
tray to hold my mug and the CPU to warm up the water for my coffee and

Egads!

tea! The 'USB sensitivity' is less but then it's May and the humidity
is more and seems that has always helped the problem.

Dunno why humidity would help; more humid the air, the more heat it holds.

.. Prism: Where Light Rays Are Sent For Committing A Minor Refraction.

Ah, that explains it!
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DV will run ReactOS, and sorta runs Mint (not well), but so far have not gotten ANY other OS to run reliably. Bunch of us over on LQ forum have
had similar problems with same board and CPU family, so.. it's a Thing.

That is interesting, since ReactOS is still in alpha or beta. Interesting
that it could handle some hardware but other OSes won't.

Mike

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Hi Ky!

KM> With the Asus P5B-Deluxe board (like mine where USB quit and
KM> voltage measured by the board was low) ... turns out it's a
KM> design problem with the southbridge wiring. Evidently it slowly
KM> cooks the relevant capacitors, and eventually, USB fails, tho the
KM> rest of the board keeps working.
Oh goodie! ASUSTek here, so the same company. (Some do sound similar
so checked.) OTTOMH I don't know what Northbridge and Southbridge do --
one of those Black Box things.

Yeah... not thrilled with Asus, but a bunch of 'em have followed
me home, so....

Free/cheap is good! Not necessarily the best, which is why the 'good'!

In Northbridge/Southbridge chipset architecture designs, the Southbridge
is the chip that controls all of the computers I/O functions, such as
USB, audio, serial, the system BIOS, the ISA bus, the interrupt
controller and the IDE channels. In other words, all of the functions of
a processor except memory, PCI and AGP.
By that sounds like if the Southbridge goes one just has a bunch of parts
on a big printed circuit board. Any suggestions as to what to watch for/starts to occur when the thing starts to fail?

USB quits? :)

That sounds like a reasonable answer!

I suppose some "hard drive fails" might also be southbridge.

So never assume what isn't working is due to what the obvious seems to
be.

And as a FWIW I did finally replace the 'AMD-approved' heat sink and fan assembly with a Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO; CPU now running a lot
cooler. Highest I've seen (per PSensor) is 112, maybe 118øF (44-48øC)

Yeah, the stock AMD heatsinks are junk. I replaced the stock
aluminum HSF on Westworld with an Adaptec-branded solid copper
HSF, and CPU temp dropped significantly.

To me it would seem (ah! there's the problem!) AMD would want to approve
an appropriate heatsink and fan. Could see two levels: Version A for
95W CPUs with up to four cores and Version B for 125W CPUs and up to
eight cores so their CPU doesn't overheat and shut down -- seems like
that would give AMD a bad reputation: "but I used what they told me to
use!".

I have a second one and would like to replace the HSF on Double
Vision, but the socket is just a wee bit off shape and can't get
it to seat. And no longer matters, as 1) it's socket939 and tho
it desperately needs a CPU upgrade, they're too expensive, and 2)
I'd forgotten til I banged into it the other day, but this was
AMD's class of supposedly-x64 CPUs that won't reliably run a
64bit OS (apparently does not actually do 64bit I/O). And I don't
know how far up the CPU chain the bug continued. (AMD had a
similar bug back in the K5/K6 era, where the 32bit CPU could not
do 32bit I/O. Windows would run, linux would not.)

AMD seems to have a not-so-stellar reputation! OTOH Intel has also had
a few screw-ups, notably the "2 + 2 = 5 for vary large values of 2"
table error.

Westworld: Asus M2N68-AM Plus with Phenom II X4 840
Double Vision: Asus A8N-SLI with Athlon 64 3200+ (Venice)
DV will run ReactOS, and sorta runs Mint (not well), but so far
have not gotten ANY other OS to run reliably. Bunch of us over on
LQ forum have had similar problems with same board and CPU
family, so.. it's a Thing.

Just is going to be a pain.

Westworld's CPU is supposedly faster than any quadcore. In Real
Life it's about 40% slower. AMD does not impress, repeatedly.

Apparently they have a very good Public Relations Department!

-- old heat sink and fan would get up to 180ø ==> could use the CD/DVD
tray to hold my mug and the CPU to warm up the water for my coffee and

Egads!

What was 'funny' is I did not hear a fan revving up. Maybe on a scale
of one to ten a three but I expect a slight change when doing something CPU-intensive. At 180øF I'd expect the fan to be in full-throttle Holy
<Poop> Mode.

tea! The 'USB sensitivity' is less but then it's May and the humidity
is more and seems that has always helped the problem.

Dunno why humidity would help; more humid the air, the more heat
it holds.

The better it conducts to ground? Grounding seems to be fine here: UPS
isn't giving me a warning light and tested with a circuit tester --
both sides ('wall outlet' and 'UPS out'). Could be a wiring quirk in
the computer, could be a sensitivity in the AMD Southbridge.....

.. Prism: Where Light Rays Are Sent For Committing A Minor Refraction.

Ah, that explains it!

Why it's so dark out?!

¯ ®
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¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


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MIKE POWELL wrote:

DV will run ReactOS, and sorta runs Mint (not well), but so far have not
gotten ANY other OS to run reliably. Bunch of us over on LQ forum have
had similar problems with same board and CPU family, so.. it's a Thing.

That is interesting, since ReactOS is still in alpha or beta. Interesting that it could handle some hardware but other OSes won't.

React is 32bit (the critical part) AND emulates WinNT (the stable part)
-- so I think it's just not seeing the bugs, or not running into them.

React is still rough in spots but over the past couple years it's come a
long way -- main problem with the visible desktop is that the generic
video driver is laggy (might need to find a different card for it). But otherwise the main visual glitches are gone, USB now works, and it's
probably on par with Win98, which is sufficient for the desktop itself
(if not for the underpinnings). I only wish it could do NTFS... FAT32
has limitations, and BFS (I think that was the other filesystem it uses)
is a steaming pile. It could at least try extN, which would be more
standard.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
KM> Yeah... not thrilled with Asus, but a bunch of 'em have followed
KM> me home, so....

Free/cheap is good! Not necessarily the best, which is why the 'good'!

Excellent, in fact. <g> Some have been good, but the problem with
companies that cater to gamers is that everyone gets to beta-test
hardware. Gamers have a hard-on for AMD, so those are usually worse.

The best one lately was Fireball (as it got dubbed) ... Silver II's new
board and CPU (Asus P9X79 LE and i7 3.7GHz) were an Xmas gift from a
friend, but was thinking I'd have to swap its CPU for a Xeon so it could
steal RAM from the PowerEdge... then got a good deal on some faster RAM,
so now I had this spare Xeon CPU I'd picked up for cheap, going to
waste. Socket2011 so not common stuff.

So was at the recycle yard and on the dead pile there's a random LGA2011 board. Begged it off 'em, took it home, populated it... it's not dead.
It's from a Thinkstation S30 (I =think= the board is actually a Tyan),
meaning it has the server-like habit of playing dead for a couple
minutes after power-up while it inventories its body parts, and someone
wasn't patient enough. Happy birthday to me. :D

So, what OS shall I put on it? :D

KM> I suppose some "hard drive fails" might also be southbridge.

So never assume what isn't working is due to what the obvious seems to
be.

Yeah... frex, when old Silver's USB was failing, it looked like it was
the external hub that failed... but nope, that's still perfectly good.

KM> Yeah, the stock AMD heatsinks are junk. I replaced the stock
KM> aluminum HSF on Westworld with an Adaptec-branded solid copper
KM> HSF, and CPU temp dropped significantly.

To me it would seem (ah! there's the problem!) AMD would want to approve
an appropriate heatsink and fan. Could see two levels: Version A for

AMD doesn't care for two reasons: general corner cutting, and the
expectation that the gamer market will replace the CPU cooler with some
custom solution anyway. But then when the same board and CPU wind up in
a commercial system**, it still has the crappy stock heatsink.

** As they usually do, once they're no longer bleeding edge, that being
where all the real money is.

95W CPUs with up to four cores and Version B for 125W CPUs and up to
eight cores so their CPU doesn't overheat and shut down -- seems like
that would give AMD a bad reputation: "but I used what they told me to
use!".

See above....

But occurs to me that may be why this tale of two essentially identical boards, both AMD:

Westworld (Clone): Asus M2N68-AM Plus
Paint It Black (Compaq) Asus M2N68-AM

Only difference is that the Compaq BIOS is locked so you can't overclock
it, and can't upgrade the CPU. Gee, I wonder why that might be??

(I always forget I have Paint It Black, possibly because it runs Vista.)

AMD seems to have a not-so-stellar reputation! OTOH Intel has also had
a few screw-ups, notably the "2 + 2 = 5 for vary large values of 2"
table error.

Everyone has bugs. But when they still published errata, AMD's list was
3x longer than Intel's. And that was when they were still using Intel's codebase, so they were capable of messing up what wasn't already broken.

KM> Westworld's CPU is supposedly faster than any quadcore. In Real
KM> Life it's about 40% slower. AMD does not impress, repeatedly.

Apparently they have a very good Public Relations Department!

Marketed to gamers, and optimized for gaming benchmarks. Gaming is a specialized environment, not the Real World. And gamers are LOUD, so
it's great free marketing. Also, gamers tend to immediately assume any
problem is due to their overclocking or to game bugs... and dismiss bugs
that came with the hardware. But by damn if it has enough bling, they'll
buy it!

As a friend puts it, gamers ruin everything.

What was 'funny' is I did not hear a fan revving up. Maybe on a scale
of one to ten a three but I expect a slight change when doing something CPU-intensive. At 180øF I'd expect the fan to be in full-throttle Holy <Poop> Mode.

No <Poop> !!

Why it's so dark out?!

The light all prismed away!
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React is 32bit (the critical part) AND emulates WinNT (the stable part)
-- so I think it's just not seeing the bugs, or not running into them.

I have been following that project on osnews.com since it started. I have
seen where it is getting close enough now that I am interested in playing
with it. I just need to get some time. Good to hear someone else is
finding that it is now useful. Most of what I would want to do with it involves Win 98 era software so that is good.

Mike

---
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Hi Ky!

KM> Yeah... not thrilled with Asus, but a bunch of 'em have followed
KM> me home, so....

> Free/cheap is good! Not necessarily the best, which is why the 'good'!

KM> Excellent, in fact. <g> Some have been good, but the problem with

companies that cater to gamers is that everyone gets to beta-test hardware. Gamers have a hard-on for AMD, so those are usually
worse.

Yes, it would almost seem the gaming excellence would translate to
super-fast CPU and GPU reaction -- how much work is it to put up a black
or any coloured letter on a screen read from a hard drive compared to if
an objects strikes another at a 47ø angle.....

The best one lately was Fireball (as it got dubbed) ... Silver
II's new board and CPU (Asus P9X79 LE and i7 3.7GHz) were an Xmas
gift from a friend, but was thinking I'd have to swap its CPU for
a Xeon so it could steal RAM from the PowerEdge... then got a
good deal on some faster RAM, so now I had this spare Xeon CPU
I'd picked up for cheap, going to waste. Socket2011 so not common
stuff.

Sounds like what I did here: the 'kit' had a motherboard, CPU + that AMD-Approved heat sink and fan, maybe some other stuff -- been a while
plus I've taken kits and used parts in two (or more!) different
projects. Problems, found out the original 125W cpu is a little too
much for the motherboard specs - heat and data-wise, so get the next one
down (90W?, similar specs -- a few someones had experimented and
appeared they knew what they were doing so went with their suggestion -
worked except for now finding a bad RAM stick -- maybe would have worked
after all? Anyway, now I have a not expensive but not cheap CPU, so get
a compatible mpotherboard.....

So was at the recycle yard and on the dead pile there's a random
LGA2011 board. Begged it off 'em, took it home, populated it...
it's not dead. It's from a Thinkstation S30 (I =think= the board
is actually a Tyan), meaning it has the server-like habit of
playing dead for a couple minutes after power-up while it
inventories its body parts, and someone wasn't patient enough.
Happy birthday to me. :D

Yeah!! ...Can you use 4x 4GB DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333)? A few years ago I accidentally picked up this server memory. HP 21576835. (Googled -
didn't seem to show anything.)

So, what OS shall I put on it? :D

KM> I suppose some "hard drive fails" might also be southbridge.
So never assume what isn't working is due to what the obvious seems to
be.

Yeah... frex, when old Silver's USB was failing, it looked like
it was the external hub that failed... but nope, that's still
perfectly good.

Yup: I thought my semi-new USB 3 Hub was failing so swapped out with a
"spare" USB 3 hub - not really spare as I was planning to use with the
new computer and bought while on sale and I could get a discount ont op
of that. Original hub was fine, just the 'static electricty issue'.
OTOH did find in that position the original 4-port hub was 'tight' and
the 7 port replacement was better. (One port has a dead thumbdrive in
it - metal case so I tap it to discharge.)

KM> Yeah, the stock AMD heatsinks are junk. I replaced the stock
KM> aluminum HSF on Westworld with an Adaptec-branded solid copper
KM> HSF, and CPU temp dropped significantly.
To me it would seem (ah! there's the problem!) AMD would want to approve
an appropriate heatsink and fan. Could see two levels: Version A for

AMD doesn't care for two reasons: general corner cutting, and the expectation that the gamer market will replace the CPU cooler
with some custom solution anyway. But then when the same board
and CPU wind up in a commercial system**, it still has the crappy
stock heatsink.
** As they usually do, once they're no longer bleeding edge, that
being where all the real money is.

Yup - now any 'super systems' around here will probably also be built
using heavy-duty cooling rather than stock cooling. May waste a little
money if comes-with -- maybe take the fan off and use it for general
moving of air.

But occurs to me that may be why this tale of two essentially
identical boards, both AMD:
Westworld (Clone): Asus M2N68-AM Plus
Paint It Black (Compaq) Asus M2N68-AM
Only difference is that the Compaq BIOS is locked so you can't
overclock it, and can't upgrade the CPU. Gee, I wonder why that
might be??

Hmm, no idea!! :)

(I always forget I have Paint It Black, possibly because it runs
Vista.)

Sometimes a real system is better than a virtual one!

AMD seems to have a not-so-stellar reputation! OTOH Intel has also had
a few screw-ups, notably the "2 + 2 = 5 for vary large values of 2"
table error.

Everyone has bugs. But when they still published errata, AMD's
list was 3x longer than Intel's. And that was when they were
still using Intel's codebase, so they were capable of messing up
what wasn't already broken.

Hmmmm.... (Why am I getting more and more certain I won't bother with
AMD in the future?)

KM> Westworld's CPU is supposedly faster than any quadcore. In Real
KM> Life it's about 40% slower. AMD does not impress, repeatedly. Apparently they have a very good Public Relations Department!

Marketed to gamers, and optimized for gaming benchmarks. Gaming
is a specialized environment, not the Real World. And gamers are
LOUD, so it's great free marketing. Also, gamers tend to
immediately assume any problem is due to their overclocking or to
game bugs... and dismiss bugs that came with the hardware. But by
damn if it has enough bling, they'll buy it!

<chuckle> Nancy and I have a thread over in ChitChat sort of about the
bling. Personally I prefer the plain black 'discreet packaging' cases.
I don't need a whirling LED pattern flying around the case perimeter nor
inside around the fan. OTOH it would be nice if the fan was having an
issue to have a warning light. If be the blinken lights do something
useful -- blinken light ist fur Chrrrristmas! <g>

As a friend puts it, gamers ruin everything.

I have avoided buying 'gamer' systems, usually because they didn't come
with what I wanted. Now I'm seeing there's a deeper reasoning.

What was 'funny' is I did not hear a fan revving up. Maybe on a scale
of one to ten a three but I expect a slight change when doing something CPU-intensive. At 180øF I'd expect the fan to be in full-throttle Holy <Poop> Mode.

No <Poop> !!

<chuckle> Of course they probably either throttled the fan speed or
kept the dB level down to keep the gamers from being distracted. <g>

Why it's so dark out?!

The light all prismed away!

I'll have to reflect on that!


¯ ®
¯ Barry_Martin_3@ ®
¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


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MIKE POWELL wrote:

React is 32bit (the critical part) AND emulates WinNT (the stable part)
-- so I think it's just not seeing the bugs, or not running into them.

I have been following that project on osnews.com since it started. I have

I too have followed it since it started. Unfortunately only rarely has
it run for me at all. But I had the previous working edition (from about
two years ago) installed for a while as a dual boot with WinXP (which
absent 3rd party drivers actually used less RAM on the same hardware --
about 75mb vs React's 85mb) ... and while it had issues, at least it
ran! XP (installed second) called it "Unknown OS" but they got on fine.

The current stable release is the next one I've got to install, and it
has come a long ways. Now, if only they'd do something about the laggy
video driver, the rest is to where it's everyday usable. USB now works,
most of the visual uglies are gone, and it no longer seems to clog up
memory as it used to do. If they can fix the laggy video driver, we'd be
in business. I'd like to have NTFS support, but even if it could just
read from NTFS disks, that would be enough. (Don't actually know if
they've added that.)

seen where it is getting close enough now that I am interested in playing with it. I just need to get some time. Good to hear someone else is
finding that it is now useful. Most of what I would want to do with it involves Win 98 era software so that is good.

I hadn't thought to use it as a wholesale replacement for Win98, but
that's a good idea. I have a great deal of software from that era; I
should set up a permanent ReactOS system and try it out. There is a long thread on the forum for tested-working software, and some is a bit
astonishing -- one of the first to work, once it got really competent at running anything, was Photoshop!

It does have the 32bit 4GB memory limit (3GB in practice) but how often
do you need more than that for Win98 stuff? I had 1GB in my very mature
Win98 box, and had disabled the swapfile as it never used more than
700mb even when very busy.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> Excellent, in fact. <g> Some have been good, but the problem with
KM> companies that cater to gamers is that everyone gets to beta-test
KM> hardware. Gamers have a hard-on for AMD, so those are usually
KM> worse.

Yes, it would almost seem the gaming excellence would translate to
super-fast CPU and GPU reaction -- how much work is it to put up a black
or any coloured letter on a screen read from a hard drive compared to if
an objects strikes another at a 47ø angle.....

Actually it's very difficult, but it's also a distinct subset of CPU
math -- so to wow gamer benchmarks, the CPU only needs to be good at game-related math, not at math in general. Have repeatedly seen this
problem with AMD "gamer" CPUs, where when you ask 'em to do math that's not-gaming, they get really sluggish. (Windows Tubes screensaver is
actually a good test; it's apparently very math-intensive.)

Sounds like what I did here: the 'kit' had a motherboard, CPU + that AMD-Approved heat sink and fan, maybe some other stuff -- been a while
plus I've taken kits and used parts in two (or more!) different
projects. Problems, found out the original 125W cpu is a little too
much for the motherboard specs - heat and data-wise, so get the next one

You CAN underclock 'em, ya know. At least if the BIOS lets you mess with
CPU settings. Most CPUs will work just fine underclocked, including set
at lower voltage.

Oh, another AMD shortfall: Double Vision (of the Socket939) CPU is one
that can be severely overclocked. Nominally 2.0GHz, but can be clocked
to nearly double that if the BIOS supports it (mine will only give me
10% more). So... have found I can either set RAM to its correct 400MHz (instead of the 333MHz the BIOS wants to default to), OR I can set the
CPU to 2.2GHz, but not both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so guess which I did. <g>

down (90W?, similar specs -- a few someones had experimented and
appeared they knew what they were doing so went with their suggestion - worked except for now finding a bad RAM stick -- maybe would have worked after all? Anyway, now I have a not expensive but not cheap CPU, so get
a compatible mpotherboard.....

Haha, yeah... Johnny Cash's Computer. <g> In fact the one I'm using til
I finish setting up Silver II is named Cash for exactly that reason!

Yeah!! ...Can you use 4x 4GB DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333)? A few years ago I accidentally picked up this server memory. HP 21576835. (Googled -
didn't seem to show anything.)

Oh yes, this is *exactly* what I can use!! Frankenservers R Us. :D

> So never assume what isn't working is due to what the obvious seems to
> be.
KM> Yeah... frex, when old Silver's USB was failing, it looked like
KM> it was the external hub that failed... but nope, that's still
KM> perfectly good.

Yup: I thought my semi-new USB 3 Hub was failing so swapped out with a "spare" USB 3 hub - not really spare as I was planning to use with the
new computer and bought while on sale and I could get a discount ont op
of that. Original hub was fine, just the 'static electricty issue'.

EXACTLY the very first issue (20-20 hindsight) with my bad southbridge
-- USB3-to-IDE adapter acted like it had an electrical fault. Made shorting-out noises and quit. (USB2-to-IDE adapter worked fine, at the
time.) Stuffed the adapter away as faulty and didn't try using it
again... until after this debacle. Yep, the adapter is fine; Silver's
USB was faulty.

OTOH did find in that position the original 4-port hub was 'tight' and
the 7 port replacement was better. (One port has a dead thumbdrive in
it - metal case so I tap it to discharge.)

Being annoyed with crappy port positioning vs oversized plugs, I got a
bunch of short extender cables, and now use those instead of arguing
over who gets what space. Um, remind me and I'll look up the vendor;
these are both inexpensive and really good quality, and BLUE so I can
tell they're USB3 at a glance.

Yup - now any 'super systems' around here will probably also be built
using heavy-duty cooling rather than stock cooling. May waste a little
money if comes-with -- maybe take the fan off and use it for general
moving of air.

Copper instead of aluminum makes such a huge difference that I will not
buy a heatsink that isn't copper core, and preferably solid copper. And
you don't necessarily need Super-Duper... for the New! Improved!!
systems I tried a little HP stock heatsink that costs all of $25 new,
and it's excellent, even tho it's very small as heatpipe types go (the
i7 idles at about 85F!!). Uses a standard case fan, another requirement
(I won't do HSFs like Zalman where if the fan fails, you have to replace
the whole monkey because the fan is this weird custom thing). Solid
copper foot, lots of fins, no bigger than two packs of playing cards
(plus fan).

One of the weird blingees I've seen is a mirror-shiny nickel-plated foot
on the heatsink. Um... nickel is a poor conductor of heat...

KM> (I always forget I have Paint It Black, possibly because it runs
KM> Vista.)

Sometimes a real system is better than a virtual one!

True. Lightfoot came with Vista64 but it was awful -- dreadful
performance even after nuking all the Stupid Crap -- got replaced with
Win7, which runs okay, if not stellar. But Vista32 on Paint It Black
runs very well, even tho that's a much slower system. So decided since
they love each other, I'd leave well enough alone, just in case I ever
need it. (Tho I should try Vista64 on it and see if maybe THAT was the problem... x64 vs consumer desktop was then a relatively new thing for Microsoft. XP64 was really Server2003 and doesn't count.)

> AMD seems to have a not-so-stellar reputation! OTOH Intel has also had
> a few screw-ups, notably the "2 + 2 = 5 for vary large values of 2"
> table error.
KM> Everyone has bugs. But when they still published errata, AMD's
KM> list was 3x longer than Intel's. And that was when they were
KM> still using Intel's codebase, so they were capable of messing up
KM> what wasn't already broken.

Hmmmm.... (Why am I getting more and more certain I won't bother with
AMD in the future?)

I dunno... maybe the same reasons I stopped buying 'em....

KM> game bugs... and dismiss bugs that came with the hardware. But by
KM> damn if it has enough bling, they'll buy it!

<chuckle> Nancy and I have a thread over in ChitChat sort of about the bling. Personally I prefer the plain black 'discreet packaging' cases.
I don't need a whirling LED pattern flying around the case perimeter nor inside around the fan. OTOH it would be nice if the fan was having an
issue to have a warning light. If be the blinken lights do something
useful -- blinken light ist fur Chrrrristmas! <g>

LOL, same sentiment!! I don't mind the odd extra light (Silver's case
has extra LEDs, tho I disconnected all but the front pair that double as nightlights) but generally, give me plain black or beige, all metal,
normal stacked drive bays, no blinking or rotating doodads or LEDs in
weird places (what's with LEDs on RAM, fer ghu's sakes??) and none of
those windows with no function but to show off your bling. I swear they
remind me of the French court, where everyone had to be more foppish
than the next, and concomitantly less functional.

KM> As a friend puts it, gamers ruin everything.

I have avoided buying 'gamer' systems, usually because they didn't come
with what I wanted. Now I'm seeing there's a deeper reasoning.

Yeah. Let them work out the kinks, at their own expense, not mine!

> What was 'funny' is I did not hear a fan revving up. Maybe on a scale
> of one to ten a three but I expect a slight change when doing something
> CPU-intensive. At 180øF I'd expect the fan to be in full-throttle Holy
> <Poop> Mode.
KM> No <Poop> !!

<chuckle> Of course they probably either throttled the fan speed or
kept the dB level down to keep the gamers from being distracted. <g>

They do complain about noise... of course, if they didn't overheat the
system to where it needs six fans just to keep gasping along, they might
not have this problem!

> Why it's so dark out?!
KM> The light all prismed away!

I'll have to reflect on that!

I don't see anything. Is it dark?
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USB extender cables, long and short (short is a 5 pack):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/131742536915

Oh, long comes in a 5pack now too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/152202333636

https://www.ebay.com/itm/141688424701

Saves a whole lot of trouble with stupidly-positioned ports and
oversized plugs.

Oh, they have a good price on this handy gadget, too: https://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-3-0-to-SATA-III-HDD-SSD-2-5-Hard-Drive-Adapter-Cable-22-Pin-Data-Power-UASP/153413388730?hash=item23b82689ba:g:BuMAAOSwF79dyOnz

They have all kinds of small techie components and tools. Was very
pleased and now they're my go-to for USB stuff.
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Hi Ky!

KM> Excellent, in fact. <g> Some have been good, but the problem with
KM> companies that cater to gamers is that everyone gets to beta-test
KM> hardware. Gamers have a hard-on for AMD, so those are usually
KM> worse.
Yes, it would almost seem the gaming excellence would translate to super-fast CPU and GPU reaction -- how much work is it to put up a black
or any coloured letter on a screen read from a hard drive compared to if
an objects strikes another at a 47ø angle.....

Actually it's very difficult, but it's also a distinct subset of
CPU math -- so to wow gamer benchmarks, the CPU only needs to be
good at game-related math, not at math in general. Have
repeatedly seen this problem with AMD "gamer" CPUs, where when
you ask 'em to do math that's not-gaming, they get really
sluggish. (Windows Tubes screensaver is actually a good test;
it's apparently very math-intensive.)

I see we've found more holes in my thinking process! It would seem
gaming math would be built on general math. Probably in real life but
not in computers.

As for Windows' Tubes screensaver, reminded how the 'snake' screensaver
for Wildcat! is extremely CPU-intensive (at least here): slams my CPU
usage to 100%, or at least with the old system. Changed to the 'text'
one and just a spike when the sign moves to a new position

Sounds like what I did here: the 'kit' had a motherboard, CPU + that AMD-Approved heat sink and fan, maybe some other stuff -- been a while
plus I've taken kits and used parts in two (or more!) different
projects. Problems, found out the original 125W cpu is a little too
much for the motherboard specs - heat and data-wise, so get the next one

You CAN underclock 'em, ya know. At least if the BIOS lets you
mess with CPU settings. Most CPUs will work just fine
underclocked, including set at lower voltage.

Trudge-trudge-trudge....! <g> I don't think I've ever fiddled with
clock speeds. The BIOS on this system will allow user configuration.
The problem I was having originally was probably more due to the one
stick of RAM being faulty, which I had assumed was OK by the quick test
being performed at boot. (MemTest 86+ even passed the stick on its
quick check option which took longer than the BIOS's.)

Oh, another AMD shortfall: Double Vision (of the Socket939) CPU
is one that can be severely overclocked. Nominally 2.0GHz, but
can be clocked to nearly double that if the BIOS supports it
(mine will only give me 10% more). So... have found I can either
set RAM to its correct 400MHz (instead of the 333MHz the BIOS
wants to default to), OR I can set the CPU to 2.2GHz, but not
both. Clocking RAM where it belongs made WAY more difference, so
guess which I did. <g>

Ummm....! <g> Set the RAM correctly!

down (90W?, similar specs -- a few someones had experimented and
appeared they knew what they were doing so went with their suggestion - worked except for now finding a bad RAM stick -- maybe would have worked after all? Anyway, now I have a not expensive but not cheap CPU, so get
a compatible motherboard.....

Haha, yeah... Johnny Cash's Computer. <g> In fact the one I'm
using til I finish setting up Silver II is named Cash for exactly
that reason!

That computer has worked fine, so possible due to the motherboard being
more compatible. Didn't take too much cash to get it up and running.

Yeah!! ...Can you use 4x 4GB DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333)? A few years ago I accidentally picked up this server memory. HP 21576835. (Googled -
didn't seem to show anything.)

Oh yes, this is *exactly* what I can use!! Frankenservers R Us. :D

E-mail where you want it sent if you haven't already deciphered my
contact address at the bottom. (So Barry underscore Martin under-
score three at q dot com.) (I have't look at e-mail yet this morning.)

> So never assume what isn't working is due to what the obvious seems to
> be.
KM> Yeah... frex, when old Silver's USB was failing, it looked like
KM> it was the external hub that failed... but nope, that's still
KM> perfectly good.
Yup: I thought my semi-new USB 3 Hub was failing so swapped out with a "spare" USB 3 hub - not really spare as I was planning to use with the
new computer and bought while on sale and I could get a discount ont op
of that. Original hub was fine, just the 'static electricty issue'.

EXACTLY the very first issue (20-20 hindsight) with my bad
southbridge -- USB3-to-IDE adapter acted like it had an
electrical fault. Made shorting-out noises and quit. (USB2-to-IDE
adapter worked fine, at the time.) Stuffed the adapter away as
faulty and didn't try using it again... until after this debacle.
Yep, the adapter is fine; Silver's USB was faulty.

Yuuhhhhhp: I've been semi-sorta on the lookout for a good Intel-based motherboard and CPU based on all this; what you just said pretty much
cinched it for me to not do AMD any longer, or at least for my primary systems. ("Secondary" being the MythTV Frontend computers around here.)

The good news is I did a 'split' in the installation: the OS is on the
SSD and the data on the HDD. Could use a new SSD with the Intel-based
OS, though then I loose all the added-on utilities onthe AMD-SSD. Will
have to see about how others did the switch -- ideas?

OTOH did find in that position the original 4-port hub was 'tight' and
the 7 port replacement was better. (One port has a dead thumbdrive in
it - metal case so I tap it to discharge.)

Being annoyed with crappy port positioning vs oversized plugs, I
got a bunch of short extender cables, and now use those instead
of arguing over who gets what space. Um, remind me and I'll look
up the vendor; these are both inexpensive and really good
quality, and BLUE so I can tell they're USB3 at a glance.

Reminder! Probably have somewhere an ANSI of a finger with a reminder
string tied around it.... My current USB 3 hub has blue LEDs but only indicate the port is connected: the USB 2 scanner is blue, the USB 3
external HDD is blue, the dead metal thumbdrive I'm using as a ground
point is blue. The port I'm using to power a gifted decoration is off
-- just power I guess won't turn on the "I'm working' LED.

When I wrote 'tight' up there actually meant number of ports and not
physical closeness. At the time I was using the 4-port hub did have two 'permanent' devices plugged in, sometimes three, occasionally all four
used, so the port availablity was 'tight'.

Yup - now any 'super systems' around here will probably also be built
using heavy-duty cooling rather than stock cooling. May waste a little money if comes-with -- maybe take the fan off and use it for general
moving of air.

Copper instead of aluminum makes such a huge difference that I
will not buy a heatsink that isn't copper core, and preferably
solid copper. And you don't necessarily need Super-Duper... for
the New! Improved!! systems I tried a little HP stock heatsink
that costs all of $25 new, and it's excellent, even tho it's very
small as heatpipe types go (the i7 idles at about 85F!!). Uses a
standard case fan, another requirement (I won't do HSFs like
Zalman where if the fan fails, you have to replace the whole
monkey because the fan is this weird custom thing). Solid copper
foot, lots of fins, no bigger than two packs of playing cards
(plus fan).

The Cooler Master I'm using was gifted from a friend in Michigan as he couldn't figure out how it was to install. I think he was confused by
the dumbed-down line drawing instructions and didn't realize the
motherboard connector (holder) had to be swapped out, though he also had mentioned about a concern of moving the pipes holding the cooling liquid
too much and cracking, thus leaking. (Was he talking about the same
cooler??) Both of those did cause me to hold back on my swap. ...Anyway, unless one really twists the heat sink itself it's not going to break
(this model, anyway), the need to swap the motherboard holder portion
did confuse me for a few minutes. The 120mm fan appears to be able to
use a standard replacement: comes with brackets to snap to the heat
sink.

One of the weird blingees I've seen is a mirror-shiny
nickel-plated foot on the heatsink. Um... nickel is a poor
conductor of heat...

Oooo: shiii-neeeey!! For me it's like the LED stuff for the fans, etc.
Egh! If some sort of a warning when at max performance (so getting too
hot), or warning LED(s) comes on when failing, fine, and even great.
I'm just not into those pretty lights that have no real use. Everyone I
know personally gets overwhelmed by the number of computers up here;
they wouldn't know a CPU from RAM if laid on the table.

KM> (I always forget I have Paint It Black, possibly because it runs
KM> Vista.)
Sometimes a real system is better than a virtual one!

True. Lightfoot came with Vista64 but it was awful -- dreadful
performance even after nuking all the Stupid Crap -- got replaced
with Win7, which runs okay, if not stellar. But Vista32 on Paint
It Black runs very well, even tho that's a much slower system. So
decided since they love each other, I'd leave well enough alone,
just in case I ever need it. (Tho I should try Vista64 on it and
see if maybe THAT was the problem... x64 vs consumer desktop was
then a relatively new thing for Microsoft. XP64 was really
Server2003 and doesn't count.)

Yes, for you might be worthwhile to check out. The only thing I need
Windows for is to occasionally run recovery software for munged
thumbdrives. ...Still running Virtual XP for the BBS stuff and X10 (ActiveHome) but both have a Linux option, just haven't gotten a Round
TuIt -- probably mired in the dust of those projects!

KM> game bugs... and dismiss bugs that came with the hardware. But by
KM> damn if it has enough bling, they'll buy it!
<chuckle> Nancy and I have a thread over in ChitChat sort of about the bling. Personally I prefer the plain black 'discreet packaging' cases.
I don't need a whirling LED pattern flying around the case perimeter nor inside around the fan. OTOH it would be nice if the fan was having an
issue to have a warning light. If be the blinken lights do something
useful -- blinken light ist fur Chrrrristmas! <g>

LOL, same sentiment!! I don't mind the odd extra light (Silver's
case has extra LEDs, tho I disconnected all but the front pair
that double as nightlights) but generally, give me plain black or
beige, all metal, normal stacked drive bays, no blinking or
rotating doodads or LEDs in weird places (what's with LEDs on
RAM, fer ghu's sakes??) and none of those windows with no
function but to show off your bling. I swear they remind me of
the French court, where everyone had to be more foppish than the
next, and concomitantly less functional.

<chuckle> I have on one (maybe more) motherboard a LED next to the RAM
which is there to mean it's running properly -- nice little plus to make diagnostics a little easier when something goes wrong.

As for the LEDs on the RAM, not sure what they would indicate other than
"bein' purdy". I'm running 6.1 GB usage right now -- and that usage line
is usually White Sands Proving Grounds flat -- boooooorrrrrinnnnng!

KM> As a friend puts it, gamers ruin everything.
I have avoided buying 'gamer' systems, usually because they didn't come
with what I wanted. Now I'm seeing there's a deeper reasoning.

Yeah. Let them work out the kinks, at their own expense, not
mine!

That too! One of the reasons I've not bought cutting edge anything --
usually initial release too expensive and pretty much know they're going
to find problems/bugs.

> What was 'funny' is I did not hear a fan revving up. Maybe on a scale
> of one to ten a three but I expect a slight change when doing something
> CPU-intensive. At 180øF I'd expect the fan to be in full-throttle

ol

> <Poop> Mode.
KM> No <Poop> !!
<chuckle> Of course they probably either throttled the fan speed or
kept the dB level down to keep the gamers from being distracted. <g>

They do complain about noise... of course, if they didn't
overheat the system to where it needs six fans just to keep
gasping along, they might not have this problem!

You've seen the picture on the Internet of someone using a box fan to
cool their computer! (Open case.)

> Why it's so dark out?!
KM> The light all prismed away!
I'll have to reflect on that!

I don't see anything. Is it dark?

Do you have your eyelids open? Ah! your hands are in front of your eyes!


¯ ®
¯ Barry_Martin_3@ ®
¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


... Yo' House is so nasty the roaches wear shoes
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Hi Ky!

USB extender cables, long and short (short is a 5 pack):

Will save and check out later. LIS in the previous message, I used
'tight' to mean running low on the number of free ports on hub.

And USB extender cables might not be a bad thing to have on hand;
haven't run into the problem with USB but did with HDMI: up here the
cable wouldn't fit into the rear panel port because the head or whatever
the plastic grab-on-to portion is called was a too big and hit the metal
of the case. Used a 1' HDMI extension (and coupler, of course).

Saves a whole lot of trouble with stupidly-positioned ports and
oversized plugs.

I've used extension cables just because the port was on the rear panel,
the computer housed in a cubbyhole of sorts, and sometimes a bother to
install or even not able to install a front panel port.

They have all kinds of small techie components and tools. Was
very pleased and now they're my go-to for USB stuff.

Will check out -- and I've got around 90% of by "COVID-19" check from the government!

¯ ®
¯ Barry_Martin_3@ ®
¯ @Q.COM ®
¯ ®


... He's so old his photo ID is a black and white tin-type.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
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--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
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