Windows makes me talk to myself:

A partial fix:

https://www.supportyourtech.com/tech/how-to-enable-smb1-on-windows-11-step-by-step-guide-for-users/

This at least lets the affected system see older network devices, but
it's strictly one way -- the older devices still can't see the
newfangled system.

Different fix: Install XP in a VM and use that to schlep files, since it
has no such difficulties.


KY MOFFET wrote:

This appears to be the problem:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/file-server/troubleshoot/smbv1-not-installed-by-default-in-windows

For the 2016 release of Win10 and before, networked PCs speak to each
other with SMB1.x; now only with SMB2.x or later.

Which means that new Win10/11 box cannot see the older box, and v.v. Or
at least only intermittenently.

If I'd wanted networking problems among mixed species of OS, I'd already
be entirely on linux.....

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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

KM> This appears to be the problem:
KM> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/file-serv
KM> er/troublesho
KM> t/smbv1-not-installed-by-default-in-windows
KM> For the 2016 release of Win10 and before, networked PCs speak to
KM> each other with SMB1.x; now only with SMB2.x or later.
KM> Which means that new Win10/11 box cannot see the older box, and
KM> v.v. Or at least only intermittenently.
KM> If I'd wanted networking problems among mixed species of OS, I'd
KM> already be entirely on linux.....

You'll be glad to know even Linux (or at least Ubuntu) had this problem
some years back. My old NAS would not talk to some of the new computers (probably with newer OS versions). Ended up I had to tell the mount
line in fstab to use "vers=1.0".

<blink> Oh. Which line is this? Because linux STILL has the same
problem. It will allow Win10-newer or 11 to see and have its way with
the linux files, but not Win10-older or anything before, even if they
see each other.

It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible without whining about "security risks". You just handle networking, and let me
worry about my own bloody security!

/posted from WinXP64, and I'll hazard I'm more secure than Win11, so there.
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Hi Ky!

KM> This appears to be the problem:
KM> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/file-serv
KM> er/troublesho
KM> t/smbv1-not-installed-by-default-in-windows
KM> For the 2016 release of Win10 and before, networked PCs speak to
KM> each other with SMB1.x; now only with SMB2.x or later.
KM> Which means that new Win10/11 box cannot see the older box, and
KM> v.v. Or at least only intermittenently.
KM> If I'd wanted networking problems among mixed species of OS, I'd
KM> already be entirely on linux.....
You'll be glad to know even Linux (or at least Ubuntu) had this problem
some years back. My old NAS would not talk to some of the new computers (probably with newer OS versions). Ended up I had to tell the mount
line in fstab to use "vers=1.0".

<blink> Oh. Which line is this? Because linux STILL has the same
problem. It will allow Win10-newer or 11 to see and have its way
with the linux files, but not Win10-older or anything before,
even if they see each other.

OK< possibly that aspect: nothing is running Windows here except the one Virtual Machine with XP so no experience.

It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible
without whining about "security risks". You just handle
networking, and let me worry about my own bloody security!

That's probably the issue: most people don't know how to run those
details on their computers. Those stories of people using the CD tray
as a cup holder and stuffing money in the floppy slot are true! ...To
me a warning/reminder of a potential problem is nice, but yes, let me
get around it if I need to, plus have the option to stop whining about
the specific incident.



> <
> BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET <
> <


... Got coal for Christmas? Let's get together and get the grill going!
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
> You'll be glad to know even Linux (or at least Ubuntu) had this problem
> some years back. My old NAS would not talk to some of the new computers
> (probably with newer OS versions). Ended up I had to tell the mount
> line in fstab to use "vers=1.0".
KM> <blink> Oh. Which line is this? Because linux STILL has the same
KM> problem. It will allow Win10-newer or 11 to see and have its way
KM> with the linux files, but not Win10-older or anything before,
KM> even if they see each other.

OK< possibly that aspect: nothing is running Windows here except the one Virtual Machine with XP so no experience.

Yeah, they're trying to make sure I only run old Windows in a VM too.

Today I'm trying to figure out why the one Win11 is constantly
downloading... something, to the limit of the available connection. It
was a preview build (cuz that's the one I could get intact, the real
thing won't complete the download) but it doesn't seem to be updating.

But I'm wondering if it's also why linux generally won't speak to older Windows too, despite that the LiveCD of the same distro did so just fine.

So which line am I fixing??

KM> It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible
KM> without whining about "security risks". You just handle
KM> networking, and let me worry about my own bloody security!

That's probably the issue: most people don't know how to run those
details on their computers. Those stories of people using the CD tray
as a cup holder and stuffing money in the floppy slot are true! ...To
me a warning/reminder of a potential problem is nice, but yes, let me
get around it if I need to, plus have the option to stop whining about
the specific incident.

It wouldn't be that hard to have it disabled by default, but when you
try to use it (like for contacting older device) have it pop up with
"You need to enable..." and a Control Panel link. Just like they do when something needs a runtime module. That way the morons would be protected
and the rest of us could fix what we need to.

But instead it just acts like there's nothing to see on the network.
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Hi Ky!

> You'll be glad to know even Linux (or at least Ubuntu) had this problem
> some years back. My old NAS would not talk to some of the new computers
> (probably with newer OS versions). Ended up I had to tell the mount
> line in fstab to use "vers=1.0".
KM> <blink> Oh. Which line is this? Because linux STILL has the same
KM> problem. It will allow Win10-newer or 11 to see and have its way
KM> with the linux files, but not Win10-older or anything before,
KM> even if they see each other.
OK, possibly that aspect: nothing is running Windows here except the one Virtual Machine with XP so no experience.

Yeah, they're trying to make sure I only run old Windows in a VM
too.

Currently here the only reason for running Windows is to get ILink.
...Should switch it all to SeaMonkey (but first!). Also have the
software for the X10 (home automation) stuff on it (VM XP) but switched
that over to a Raspberry Pi. Also occasionally ran utilities to repair/ recover thumbdrives but those generally failed: if the underlying Linux
system doesn't see the thumbrive (or see it properly) then the Windows
on top of the Linux system probably doesn't see it either.

Today I'm trying to figure out why the one Win11 is constantly downloading... something, to the limit of the available
connection. It was a preview build (cuz that's the one I could
get intact, the real thing won't complete the download) but it
doesn't seem to be updating.

Something like 'Task Manager' or 'System Monitor' to see what programme
is doing the download? Years ago I had a tangential problem:
SchedulesDirect (for MythTV - provides the TV programme listings) was not updating. Somehow found out the reason was because I had a 'constant connection' to their website, so I used some sort of IP monitor to
discover that information. Shut off the offending computer (it was a
laptop I was testing but don't recal why I installed MythTV on it);
regained my SchedulesDirect data a few hours later. (The remote site
had temporarily blacklisted my connection and automatically reset.)

But I'm wondering if it's also why linux generally won't speak to
older Windows too, despite that the LiveCD of the same distro did
so just fine.
So which line am I fixing??

The green one. <g> If the LiveCD worked but the installed version does
not I'm thinking compare the configurations. Files > Other Locations > Windows Network > select computer.

Another option is at the bottom of the Other Locations panel is "Connect
to Server" and try a new connection.

I have also used tools like Remmina, TigerVNC, and now NoMachine to
connect to the desktops of remote computers. Only Linux here, so no experience with Windows, etc., but Remmina does have RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol) and I think that's for Windows.

KM> It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible
KM> without whining about "security risks". You just handle
KM> networking, and let me worry about my own bloody security!
That's probably the issue: most people don't know how to run those
details on their computers. Those stories of people using the CD tray
as a cup holder and stuffing money in the floppy slot are true! ...To
me a warning/reminder of a potential problem is nice, but yes, let me
get around it if I need to, plus have the option to stop whining about
the specific incident.

It wouldn't be that hard to have it disabled by default, but when
you try to use it (like for contacting older device) have it pop
up with "You need to enable..." and a Control Panel link. Just
like they do when something needs a runtime module. That way the
morons would be protected and the rest of us could fix what we
need to.

It's creating the linked popups that's creating the problem with the programmers!

But instead it just acts like there's nothing to see on the
network.

Yes, and sometimes the error messages give barely a clue other than "oh
hey: something's wrong".

> <
> BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET <
> <


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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> OK, possibly that aspect: nothing is running Windows here except the one
> Virtual Machine with XP so no experience.
KM> Yeah, they're trying to make sure I only run old Windows in a VM
KM> too.

Currently here the only reason for running Windows is to get ILink.
..Should switch it all to SeaMonkey (but first!). Also have the
software for the X10 (home automation) stuff on it (VM XP) but switched
that over to a Raspberry Pi. Also occasionally ran utilities to repair/ recover thumbdrives but those generally failed: if the underlying Linux system doesn't see the thumbrive (or see it properly) then the Windows
on top of the Linux system probably doesn't see it either.

That kinda indicates a hardware-level fail. The VM has its own drivers.

KM> Today I'm trying to figure out why the one Win11 is constantly
KM> downloading... something, to the limit of the available
KM> connection. It was a preview build (cuz that's the one I could
KM> get intact, the real thing won't complete the download) but it
KM> doesn't seem to be updating.

Something like 'Task Manager' or 'System Monitor' to see what programme
is doing the download? Years ago I had a tangential problem

Not useful in this case. And being it's a, um unofficial build, there
could be Things Going On we need to know about. (As happens, there weren't.)

But... <copypasta>

===
Finally tracked down the apparent bad behavior by the "Need for Speed"
Win11, the only one that would agree to install on Zombie, probably
because it uses the Win10 installer. (Also has a few handy things,
including a much better version of Office 2016 than the one I still
resent having paid $8.99-legal for.) However it is a "preview" edition,
and occasionally whines that it expired a year ago. (Tho activation
through MSGuides worked.) I tell it that its calendar needs updating. <g>

So I always run Task Mangler, and... why is it filling up every scrap of download capacity that some other machine isn't using?? (And it's really
good at getting out of the way when something else wants bandwidth.
Regular Windows Update is not, it likes to hog the whole thing.)

Wireshark wouldn't show me ANYTHING. Like, blank. *suspicious glare*

So ran one or another of the NirSoft utils and observed many
connections, all pulling lots of data. Some to Akamai which is one of Microsoft's CDNs, and more to... Edge-something, I've already forgotten,
but it used to be Yahoo's CDN. 157.x.x.x. After much thrashing around, I
learn that this is another of Microsoft's CDNs, specifically a cache
server, and apparently Zombie is running a huge update in the
background, without running Windows Update (which seems to operate
entirely independent of this, and still handles security and driver
updates). One of the connections IDs to the domain for Office updates.

Learned that this has been going on for most of this year, and has
caused some alarm at the enterprise level, and among home users with the
savvy to notice. (Has also generated a slew of complaints to various
abuse loggers.) You couldn't just TELL us...???

But apparently it does not affect Win11 Home, as the little netbook
doesn't have this habit. (Actually, WinAero Tweaker can totally disable updates, to where it goes "Whuuu??" if you try to run Windows Update.)
But this is Pro, apparently. And does not require a Microsoft login to
work, as Home does.

===

So, it's not a problem, or malware, or anything untoward; it's just a
bad decision by Microsoft. And when it finished a couple hours later, I couldn't see any difference, and I STILL haven't found where it was
storing the updates (they're not in Software Distribution, where they
normally land).

And why the heck did the Office2016 I paid money for have such a
gawdawful interface it's entirely unusable, but the one from, uh,
unofficial channels is normal? Not to complain, finally got what I paid
for, but geez.

OTOH, Control Panel doesn't work. The functions are still there, you
just have to dumpster-dive for them.
:

SchedulesDirect (for MythTV - provides the TV programme listings) was not updating. Somehow found out the reason was because I had a 'constant connection' to their website, so I used some sort of IP monitor to
discover that information. Shut off the offending computer (it was a
laptop I was testing but don't recal why I installed MythTV on it);
regained my SchedulesDirect data a few hours later. (The remote site
had temporarily blacklisted my connection and automatically reset.)

That's possibly the dumbest behavior I've ever heard of. Like no one
ever has two installs in the same household??

KM> But I'm wondering if it's also why linux generally won't speak to
KM> older Windows too, despite that the LiveCD of the same distro did
KM> so just fine.
KM> So which line am I fixing??

The green one. <g> If the LiveCD worked but the installed version does
not I'm thinking compare the configurations. Files > Other Locations > Windows Network > select computer.

No, I mean in, what was it in, uh, fstab ??

Another option is at the bottom of the Other Locations panel is "Connect
to Server" and try a new connection.

Maybe in Gnome!!

I have also used tools like Remmina, TigerVNC, and now NoMachine to
connect to the desktops of remote computers. Only Linux here, so no experience with Windows, etc., but Remmina does have RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol) and I think that's for Windows.

I don't need to connect to the desktop, I need to connect to the filesystem.

> KM> It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible
> KM> without whining about "security risks". You just handle
> KM> networking, and let me worry about my own bloody security!
> That's probably the issue: most people don't know how to run those
> details on their computers. Those stories of people using the CD tray
> as a cup holder and stuffing money in the floppy slot are true! ...To
> me a warning/reminder of a potential problem is nice, but yes, let me
> get around it if I need to, plus have the option to stop whining about
> the specific incident.
KM> It wouldn't be that hard to have it disabled by default, but when
KM> you try to use it (like for contacting older device) have it pop
KM> up with "You need to enable..." and a Control Panel link. Just
KM> like they do when something needs a runtime module. That way the
KM> morons would be protected and the rest of us could fix what we
KM> need to.

It's creating the linked popups that's creating the problem with the programmers!

Oh, is THAT how it works! I wonder, if I stick a pin in the bubble...

KM> But instead it just acts like there's nothing to see on the
KM> network.

Yes, and sometimes the error messages give barely a clue other than "oh
hey: something's wrong".

Oh, that would be Apple, which LITERALLY spits up "Dude, something went wrong!" as the official error message!

WinAero Tweaker to the rescue -- one of its settings restores the
proper error messages in the event of a BSOD. But that does no good for smaller errors, tho one can trawl Event Viewer and sometimes discover
the problem. It's amazing how many silent faults happen.
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Hi Ky!

> OK, possibly that aspect: nothing is running Windows here except the one
> Virtual Machine with XP so no experience.
KM> Yeah, they're trying to make sure I only run old Windows in a VM
KM> too.
Currently here the only reason for running Windows is to get ILink.
..Should switch it all to SeaMonkey (but first!). Also have the
software for the X10 (home automation) stuff on it (VM XP) but switched
that over to a Raspberry Pi. Also occasionally ran utilities to repair/ recover thumbdrives but those generally failed: if the underlying Linux system doesn't see the thumbrive (or see it properly) then the Windows
on top of the Linux system probably doesn't see it either.

That kinda indicates a hardware-level fail. The VM has its own
drivers.

OK. The failed hardware more than likely the thumbdrive I was trying to repair/recover. A very few I did fix. the rest probably not recoverable
under any consumer-level method.

KM> Today I'm trying to figure out why the one Win11 is constantly
KM> downloading... something, to the limit of the available
KM> connection. It was a preview build (cuz that's the one I could
KM> get intact, the real thing won't complete the download) but it
KM> doesn't seem to be updating.
Something like 'Task Manager' or 'System Monitor' to see what programme
is doing the download? Years ago I had a tangential problem

Not useful in this case. And being it's a, um unofficial build,
there could be Things Going On we need to know about. (As
happens, there weren't.)

Think of the stuff Microsoft could learn from unofficial builds - the
beta testers of the operating system world!

But... <copypasta>

Is that like a spaghetti, or rigatoni, or....?

===
Finally tracked down the apparent bad behavior by the "Need for
Speed" Win11, the only one that would agree to install on Zombie,
probably because it uses the Win10 installer. (Also has a few
handy things, including a much better version of Office 2016 than
the one I still resent having paid $8.99-legal for.) However it
is a "preview" edition, and occasionally whines that it expired a
year ago. (Tho activation through MSGuides worked.) I tell it
that its calendar needs updating. <g>

Compute like it's 1999! (Trying to reference the song.)

So I always run Task Mangler, and... why is it filling up every
scrap of download capacity that some other machine isn't using??
(And it's really good at getting out of the way when something
else wants bandwidth. Regular Windows Update is not, it likes to
hog the whole thing.)

Regular Windows Update is being a snob: "I'm better than anyone else on
this line."

Wireshark wouldn't show me ANYTHING. Like, blank. *suspicious
glare*

No wonder it's taking so long: nothing is happening!! <g> I have seen transfer speeds reported at some extremely slow rate: usually the end of
an extremely huge file.

So ran one or another of the NirSoft utils and observed many
connections, all pulling lots of data. Some to Akamai which is
one of Microsoft's CDNs, and more to... Edge-something, I've
already forgotten, but it used to be Yahoo's CDN. 157.x.x.x.
After much thrashing around, I learn that this is another of
Microsoft's CDNs, specifically a cache server, and apparently
Zombie is running a huge update in the background, without
running Windows Update (which seems to operate entirely
independent of this, and still handles security and driver
updates). One of the connections IDs to the domain for Office
updates.

But that's weird Wireshark not reporting activity. Unless you just
happened to poll at a time when no download was occurring because the
copmuter needed to extract the latest portion to determine what to
download next.

Learned that this has been going on for most of this year, and
has caused some alarm at the enterprise level, and among home
users with the savvy to notice. (Has also generated a slew of
complaints to various abuse loggers.) You couldn't just TELL
us...???

Maybe Microsoft wanted to generate user traffic to verify the need for
the Bing search engine plus hard drive room to store the forums!

But apparently it does not affect Win11 Home, as the little
netbook doesn't have this habit. (Actually, WinAero Tweaker can
totally disable updates, to where it goes "Whuuu??" if you try to
run Windows Update.) But this is Pro, apparently. And does not
require a Microsoft login to work, as Home does.

Logins are good and bad. Good in verifying legitamacy, but that also
probably curbs other upgrades like adding additional hard drives or even replacing the motherboard.

Bad in seems to require access to Microsoft. What if there's a storm
and the connection is unavailable?

===

So, it's not a problem, or malware, or anything untoward; it's
just a bad decision by Microsoft. And when it finished a couple
hours later, I couldn't see any difference, and I STILL haven't
found where it was storing the updates (they're not in Software Distribution, where they normally land).

Isn't there frequently an area of the hard drive reported as not doing anything? Megabyte or so on eithe rside of the partition. And could
probably use a 'secret' format which isn't reported by the file
utilities.

And why the heck did the Office2016 I paid money for have such a
gawdawful interface it's entirely unusable, but the one from, uh, unofficial channels is normal? Not to complain, finally got what
I paid for, but geez.

The unofficial channels started off with the official Office2016, also
didn't like it, and modified to their (and most people's) satisfcation.
If official channel would have been called open source.

OTOH, Control Panel doesn't work. The functions are still there,
you just have to dumpster-dive for them.

That's how discoveries are made?!

SchedulesDirect (for MythTV - provides the TV programme listings) was not updating. Somehow found out the reason was because I had a 'constant connection' to their website, so I used some sort of IP monitor to
discover that information. Shut off the offending computer (it was a
laptop I was testing but don't recal why I installed MythTV on it);
regained my SchedulesDirect data a few hours later. (The remote site
had temporarily blacklisted my connection and automatically reset.)

That's possibly the dumbest behavior I've ever heard of. Like no
one ever has two installs in the same household??

The way I phrased it, yes. One can have multiple installs: can have
Master and Slave Backends. (Makes the recordings, holds the recordings.)
I have multiple Frontends (playback units). I think the problem was
somehow I configured the Backend on the laptop thinking I was
configuring the Frontend, (This was probably 20 years ago -- from what
I recall of then and what I'm doing currently bringing up the new system
it would be very difficult to get that confused.)

KM> But I'm wondering if it's also why linux generally won't speak to
KM> older Windows too, despite that the LiveCD of the same distro did
KM> so just fine.
KM> So which line am I fixing??
The green one. <g> If the LiveCD worked but the installed version does
not I'm thinking compare the configurations. Files > Other Locations > Windows Network > select computer.

No, I mean in, what was it in, uh, fstab ??

Try something like:
## //192.168.4.120/Motion /mnt/NSA320_Motion cifs username=xxx,password=xxx,iocharset=utf8,gid=1000,uid=1000,file_mode=0777, dir_mode=0777,vers=1.0 0 0

Obviously don't comment -- the double comment is more or less a code for
me when updating. The portion to go back to use the old SAMBA is
vers=1.00. No spaces allowed in the command section. You probably need
to change cifs to the specific format or use auto. This site might be helpful: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab

Another option is at the bottom of the Other Locations panel is "Connect
to Server" and try a new connection.

Maybe in Gnome!!

I haven't added any connections in ages; usually easier to use Remmina/ TigerVNC/NoMachine as I usually need to see the Desktop.

I have also used tools like Remmina, TigerVNC, and now NoMachine to
connect to the desktops of remote computers. Only Linux here, so no experience with Windows, etc., but Remmina does have RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol) and I think that's for Windows.

I don't need to connect to the desktop, I need to connect to the filesystem.

ssh?!

> KM> It's just bizarre that they can't make this backward compatible
> KM> without whining about "security risks". You just handle
> KM> networking, and let me worry about my own bloody security!
> That's probably the issue: most people don't know how to run those
> details on their computers. Those stories of people using the CD tray
> as a cup holder and stuffing money in the floppy slot are true! ...To
> me a warning/reminder of a potential problem is nice, but yes, let me
> get around it if I need to, plus have the option to stop whining about
> the specific incident.
KM> It wouldn't be that hard to have it disabled by default, but when
KM> you try to use it (like for contacting older device) have it pop
KM> up with "You need to enable..." and a Control Panel link. Just
KM> like they do when something needs a runtime module. That way the
KM> morons would be protected and the rest of us could fix what we
KM> need to.
It's creating the linked popups that's creating the problem with the programmers!

Oh, is THAT how it works! I wonder, if I stick a pin in the
bubble...

Then the pin gets stuck in the bubble. ...You don't think they're going
to make the bubble out of something fragile do you?

KM> But instead it just acts like there's nothing to see on the
KM> network.
Yes, and sometimes the error messages give barely a clue other than "oh
hey: something's wrong".

Oh, that would be Apple, which LITERALLY spits up "Dude,
something went wrong!" as the official error message!

They're soooo helpful!

WinAero Tweaker to the rescue -- one of its settings restores
the proper error messages in the event of a BSOD. But that does
no good for smaller errors, tho one can trawl Event Viewer and
sometimes discover the problem. It's amazing how many silent
faults happen.

Yes: back when I had a problem because the USB3 extension cable was too
long there were thousands, maybe million lines of errors just on this
one problem -- I think every minute -- in syslog. Anything display
normally? Nope. I eventually discovered while looking for another
problem.


> <
> BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET <
> <


... Don't void warranty by removing screws -- open with hacksaw instead.
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