BARRY MARTIN wrote:

The double hyphen (--) is
translated to a long hyphen by LibreOffice.

Actually, no. It's not translated into an m-dash, as one would expect,
but into an n-dash, used by absolutely no one for absolutely nothing.

Another weirdness is that the -- to n-dash only works if there's a space
to either side, which is fine for some things but not how book
publishing wants it.

The problem is that there's no real standard for m-dash (there are three different codes in RTF, and gods know how LibreOffice's XML handles it), however there is a standard for n-dash. So that's what it uses, unless
you paste in a proper m-dash or have it assigned as a special character.
It may be *calling* an m-dash, but it is an n-dash. (About a third to
half shorter than an m-dash, but about double the length of a hyphen.)

In fact now that I think of it, I need to see if I can change the
autocorrect so it'll give me a proper m-dash. Or make it 3 hyphens.

Otherwise I have to keep another document open, with a real m-dash, that
I can copy and paste from as needed.
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Hi Ky!

The double hyphen (--) is
translated to a long hyphen by LibreOffice.

Actually, no. It's not translated into an m-dash, as one would
expect, but into an n-dash, used by absolutely no one for
absolutely nothing.

(Who would have thought a discussion of dashes outside of running!)

I sort of recall the 'm-dash', not an 'n-dash' -- and only heard of the
m-dash in the past few years. Something I haven't (yet) incorporated
into my vocabulary.

Another weirdness is that the -- to n-dash only works if there's
a space to either side, which is fine for some things but not how
book publishing wants it.

(So how does book publishing desire?) I do the space-dash-dash-space
thing: to me looks better and conveys the usage. A dash (meaning
hyphen) without a space (to me) implies the word is hyphenated: as in 'non-stop'. A space-hyphen-space implies a brief pause, semi-colon-ish,
but a semi-colon is a hare longer and attaches two similar and sort of continuous thoughts whereas the hyphen is sort of like a pause for a inhalation.

(Wonder how I'm doing? A non-technical English speaker trying to
descibe punctuation to someone who is well-versed in it!)

The problem is that there's no real standard for m-dash (there
are three different codes in RTF, and gods know how LibreOffice's
XML handles it), however there is a standard for n-dash. So
that's what it uses, unless you paste in a proper m-dash or have
it assigned as a special character. It may be *calling* an
m-dash, but it is an n-dash. (About a third to half shorter than
an m-dash, but about double the length of a hyphen.)

I would half-guess if someone like a programmer were to select a
punctuation mark he would slect the one with a standard behind it, so
the folks at LibreOffice accidentally selected the wrong dash style.

In fact now that I think of it, I need to see if I can change the autocorrect so it'll give me a proper m-dash. Or make it 3
hyphens.

Three hyphens means a tadline is coming up!

LibreOffice (and so probably other word processors) has a search-and-
replace function: ^H. (You're welcome Mike!)

Otherwise I have to keep another document open, with a real
m-dash, that I can copy and paste from as needed.

You are going to figure out that auto-correct real soon: all that manual copy/paste will get old and hand-crampy quickly!

> <
> BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET <
> <


... Avoid commas, that are not necessary.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

>The double hyphen (--) is
> translated to a long hyphen by LibreOffice.
KM> Actually, no. It's not translated into an m-dash, as one would
KM> expect, but into an n-dash, used by absolutely no one for
KM> absolutely nothing.

(Who would have thought a discussion of dashes outside of running!)

It's a mad dash for the word processor!

I sort of recall the 'm-dash', not an 'n-dash' -- and only heard of the m-dash in the past few years. Something I haven't (yet) incorporated
into my vocabulary.

I knew m-dash (emdash) first, myself. N-dash of course comes after. <g>

KM> Another weirdness is that the -- to n-dash only works if there's
KM> a space to either side, which is fine for some things but not how
KM> book publishing wants it.

(So how does book publishing desire?) I do the space-dash-dash-space
thing: to me looks better and conveys the usage. A dash (meaning

I prefer space-dash-dash-space as well (unless at the end of a
sentence), not only looks better but doesn't lead to long strings that
don't linebreak gracefully. BUT... this does not translate well into
ebook formats, which are XML in a wrapper. You get extra spaces on one
end and it looks stupid. You can use a nonbreaking space but then you
get different problems.

So for final formatting, all the -- become--shrunk.

hyphen) without a space (to me) implies the word is hyphenated: as in 'non-stop'. A space-hyphen-space implies a brief pause, semi-colon-ish,
but a semi-colon is a hare longer and attaches two similar and sort of continuous thoughts whereas the hyphen is sort of like a pause for a inhalation.

A proper m-dash is long enough that it's obviously NOT a hyphen.
However, some word processors and some fonts mangle them all to the same length, at least in the display. RoughDraft does that, so I don't use
m-dash until final formatting (Wordpad, then Calibre).

(Wonder how I'm doing? A non-technical English speaker trying to
descibe punctuation to someone who is well-versed in it!)

Oh, wait til you see German or Spanish punctuation....

KM> The problem is that there's no real standard for m-dash (there
KM> are three different codes in RTF, and gods know how LibreOffice's
KM> XML handles it), however there is a standard for n-dash. So
KM> that's what it uses, unless you paste in a proper m-dash or have
KM> it assigned as a special character. It may be *calling* an
KM> m-dash, but it is an n-dash. (About a third to half shorter than
KM> an m-dash, but about double the length of a hyphen.)

I would half-guess if someone like a programmer were to select a
punctuation mark he would slect the one with a standard behind it, so
the folks at LibreOffice accidentally selected the wrong dash style.

It was more "anything that is RTF is Microsoft, therefore we will not
support it." And yes it was that stupid. It's WHY there is no real RTF
editor for linux. Well, there's one sort of but it hasn't been updated
in about 12 years, and wasn't very good to start with. NO, the mess LibreOffice and the like make of RTF export doesn't count. (Includes all
the printing and layout codes and screws up ebook formatting, so has to
be manually stripped anyway, which is a PITA if you don't have a very
old HTML convertor to deal with it. We're talking 1995, and it's a
Microsoft tool, so... back to the same stupid objection.)

KM> In fact now that I think of it, I need to see if I can change the
KM> autocorrect so it'll give me a proper m-dash. Or make it 3
KM> hyphens.

Three hyphens means a tadline is coming up!

Two mean end of message!

LibreOffice (and so probably other word processors) has a search-and-
replace function: ^H. (You're welcome Mike!)

Yeah, they put it somewhere nonstandard.
>

KM> Otherwise I have to keep another document open, with a real
KM> m-dash, that I can copy and paste from as needed.

You are going to figure out that auto-correct real soon: all that manual copy/paste will get old and hand-crampy quickly!

Tiresome, but necessary....

.. Avoid commas, that are not necessary.

.. "Bones! I! have! finally! learned! punctuation!!"
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Hi Ky!

>The double hyphen (--) is
> translated to a long hyphen by LibreOffice.
KM> Actually, no. It's not translated into an m-dash, as one would
KM> expect, but into an n-dash, used by absolutely no one for
KM> absolutely nothing.
(Who would have thought a discussion of dashes outside of running!)

It's a mad dash for the word processor!

Now you're dashing my hopes!

I sort of recall the 'm-dash', not an 'n-dash' -- and only heard of the m-dash in the past few years. Something I haven't (yet) incorporated
into my vocabulary.

I knew m-dash (emdash) first, myself. N-dash of course comes
after. <g>

And thus o'dash (mainly used in Ireland!)

KM> Another weirdness is that the -- to n-dash only works if there's
KM> a space to either side, which is fine for some things but not how
KM> book publishing wants it.
(So how does book publishing desire?) I do the space-dash-dash-space
thing: to me looks better and conveys the usage. A dash (meaning

I prefer space-dash-dash-space as well (unless at the end of a
sentence), not only looks better but doesn't lead to long strings
that don't linebreak gracefully. BUT... this does not translate
well into ebook formats, which are XML in a wrapper. You get
extra spaces on one end and it looks stupid. You can use a
nonbreaking space but then you get different problems.
So for final formatting, all the -- become--shrunk.

I'm thinking when setting up the the typeface and layout for book it's
just as much artist as mechanical. One does not want the single
sentence (or worse: word) on the following page. The letters,
punctuation, etc., must look pleasing to the eyes, ...Etc., etc., etc.

hyphen) without a space (to me) implies the word is hyphenated: as in 'non-stop'. A space-hyphen-space implies a brief pause, semi-colon-ish,
but a semi-colon is a hare longer and attaches two similar and sort of continuous thoughts whereas the hyphen is sort of like a pause for a inhalation.

A proper m-dash is long enough that it's obviously NOT a hyphen.
However, some word processors and some fonts mangle them all to
the same length, at least in the display. RoughDraft does that,
so I don't use m-dash until final formatting (Wordpad, then
Calibre).

I have probably noted the various lengths of the dashes but not paid all
that much attention to the detail.

(Wonder how I'm doing? A non-technical English speaker trying to
descibe punctuation to someone who is well-versed in it!)

Oh, wait til you see German or Spanish punctuation....

I haven't noticed all that much difference in German punctuation -- main difference I can think of is the umlaut. Oh, and their quote marks are
the << >>. ...And the eszett (sort of a beta-looking character for
'ss': Traungasse.

Spanish has a nice option: the upside-down exclamation point at the
beginning of the sentence. Suupose it does spoil the surprise! <g>

KM> The problem is that there's no real standard for m-dash (there
KM> are three different codes in RTF, and gods know how LibreOffice's
KM> XML handles it), however there is a standard for n-dash. So
KM> that's what it uses, unless you paste in a proper m-dash or have
KM> it assigned as a special character. It may be *calling* an
KM> m-dash, but it is an n-dash. (About a third to half shorter than
KM> an m-dash, but about double the length of a hyphen.)
I would half-guess if someone like a programmer were to select a
punctuation mark he would slect the one with a standard behind it, so
the folks at LibreOffice accidentally selected the wrong dash style.

It was more "anything that is RTF is Microsoft, therefore we will
not support it." And yes it was that stupid. It's WHY there is no
real RTF editor for linux. Well, there's one sort of but it
hasn't been updated in about 12 years, and wasn't very good to
start with. NO, the mess LibreOffice and the like make of RTF
export doesn't count. (Includes all the printing and layout codes
and screws up ebook formatting, so has to be manually stripped
anyway, which is a PITA if you don't have a very old HTML
convertor to deal with it. We're talking 1995, and it's a
Microsoft tool, so... back to the same stupid objection.)

I have 'noticed' when I copy in a document (from a website to
LibreOffice) there are numerous strange possibilities: won't import then
entire document -- there are invisible characters saying 'stop copying
here!'. Copy in that part, go on to the next part....

Pictures give all sorts of strangeness: sometimes HUGE (as big as the
'page', sometimes schmooshed, sometimes a hollow box.... Copy and
paste.

I started copying stuff to my hard drive because sometimes impossible to
find the source material again. And sometimes the site purges, or even
goes bye-bye.

KM> In fact now that I think of it, I need to see if I can change the
KM> autocorrect so it'll give me a proper m-dash. Or make it 3
KM> hyphens.
Three hyphens means a tagline is coming up!

Two mean end of message!

But one we just keep going with a bit of a pause!

LibreOffice (and so probably other word processors) has a search-and- replace function: ^H. (You're welcome Mike!)

Yeah, they put it somewhere nonstandard.

Probably means something to the person who inserted the routine.
..."The <H>eck with this manual searching!!"

.. Avoid commas, that are not necessary.

.. "Bones! I! have! finally! learned! punctuation!!"

Hupeeeeeeeee!


> <
> BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET <
> <


... Orchestras are basically 1800's cover bands.
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