BARRY MARTIN wrote:

KY MOFFET wrote to ALL <=-

KM> Someone gift me an MSI "H97 Gamer 3" board and CPU, supposedly

KM> Next step, one would think, is a bank of these, rather than just
KM> one. But each NVMe takes away two SATA ports, and they need to be
KM> secured so they don't jump out, so there's some engineering yet
KM> to do. (Would also be easier to keep cool than when flat on the
KM> mainboard.)

Rig up a small fan to blow air on and under the NVMe? So off to the
side, not directly overhead. ...Might be easier (and safer) to mount a
fan to the chassis and use a non-conducting tube to direct the air from
the fan towards the NVMe.

I haven't bothered with special cooling for the NVMe in Silver, tho
they're both on PCIe cards, and barely get warm to the touch. Haven't
bothered buying heatsink models either. Haven't seen that it makes a
lick of difference, but mine don't work all that hard (swapfile, VMs,
temp and browser cache). But if someone is stressing the drive, like
some gaming or heavy file transfer.... they do thermal throttling, and
that's a cue that yep, needs help.

But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.
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Hi Ky!

KM> Someone gift me an MSI "H97 Gamer 3" board and CPU, supposedly

KM> Next step, one would think, is a bank of these, rather than just
KM> one. But each NVMe takes away two SATA ports, and they need to be
KM> secured so they don't jump out, so there's some engineering yet
KM> to do. (Would also be easier to keep cool than when flat on the
KM> mainboard.)
Rig up a small fan to blow air on and under the NVMe? So off to the
side, not directly overhead. ...Might be easier (and safer) to mount a
fan to the chassis and use a non-conducting tube to direct the air from
the fan towards the NVMe.

I haven't bothered with special cooling for the NVMe in Silver,
tho they're both on PCIe cards, and barely get warm to the touch.
Haven't bothered buying heatsink models either. Haven't seen that
it makes a lick of difference, but mine don't work all that hard (swapfile, VMs, temp and browser cache). But if someone is
stressing the drive, like some gaming or heavy file transfer....
they do thermal throttling, and that's a cue that yep, needs
help.

When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra
cooling mechanisms. Possibly came with its own heatsink - I don't
recall. Seems to be running sufficient cool: psensor saying 98øF. I do
try to get reasonable airflow inside my computers so that might help in
the cooling. Also, it generally sits there bored, its main function to
supply storage for the Virtual Machines.

But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.

Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the
NVMe is not mounted over anything creating a lot of heat. Sure, the electronics creates some heat, but the fractional-watt of heat is easily
blown away, unlike the amount of heat produced by CPUs.

I sort of did heat experiments on my Raspberry Pi's over time. Poor
thing overheating: add the heat sinks: ahh! ...Some time later after
upgrades, more software being worked one, etc., "I'm starting to sweat
again!" Add a fan -- "thank you!". Fan doesn't have to move the air
all that quickly, just move it like a barely-perceptible breeze.


¯ ®
¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ®
¯ ®


... Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent and reboot.
Order shall return.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA

--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
* Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1)

BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra
cooling mechanisms. Possibly came with its own heatsink - I don't
recall. Seems to be running sufficient cool: psensor saying 98øF. I do
try to get reasonable airflow inside my computers so that might help in
the cooling. Also, it generally sits there bored, its main function to supply storage for the Virtual Machines.

Silver has one for I don't know what (currently other-drive-is-busy let's-prevent-fragmentation storage) and one that does swapfile, temp
and browser cache, and VMs (3 partitions).

Zombie (the "dead" gamer board) apparently can only support ONE NVMe, no matter where it is -- still haven't found one that the mainboard slot supports, but it'll boot off one in a PCIe card. But only ONE. Two on
the card, or one on each of two cards, nope -- only one is seen. The
joys of between-generation tech...

Silver is older, and doesn't natively support NVMe. But a driver exists,
and the limit seems to be "how many can you stuff in here?"

> KM> But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.

Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the

I'd think so. I've developed the impression that NVMe heatsinks and
other blather are mostly for gamers who are doing huge reads repeatedly, already have a system full of bling and overclocking heat, and that
starts heat-tripping the drive. Had the 1TB NVMe (on a PCIe card, no
heatsink) working for a while the other day and afterward it's barely
warm enough to tell it was powered on. Case hanging open, but no case
fan, just a CPU fan barely running and whatever the PSU has, also on
low. Probably won't bother with a secondary case fan, doesn't seem very necessary. (Also won't have a bunch of hot spinning rust internal
drives.... doors hang open on Silver's spinnies in hotswap bays).

NVMe is not mounted over anything creating a lot of heat. Sure, the electronics creates some heat, but the fractional-watt of heat is easily blown away, unlike the amount of heat produced by CPUs.

I sure have come to appreciate the heatpipe coolers. Even the most
minimal model is miles better than the best solid-core type. I have
cheap little HP salvage coolers on Silver (i7-4820k) and Fireball (Xeon
about equivalent), and they idle just above ambient and work hard at
about 45C. Zombie has a slightly faster Xeon, the first cheap heatpipe
with a copper foot and a fan that came to hand, and is stable at 43C
with the fan running about as low as it goes (and in the middle of the heatsink, so probably not as efficient).

The rather-slower i5 that came on Zombie had been heat-tripped (HSF
wasn't even touching for the most part) and firmly believes it runs at
99C all the time, even when it's barely warm. BUT... otherwise it still
works.

I sort of did heat experiments on my Raspberry Pi's over time. Poor
thing overheating: add the heat sinks: ahh! ...Some time later after upgrades, more software being worked one, etc., "I'm starting to sweat again!" Add a fan -- "thank you!". Fan doesn't have to move the air
all that quickly, just move it like a barely-perceptible breeze.

Yeah, it's mighty variable, but a good general rule is... Everything
likes a fan!

.. Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent and reboot.
Order shall return.

Some Haiku reflect
words of insight and beauty
but this one does not
þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com

--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
* Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1)

Hi Ky!

When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra
cooling mechanisms. Possibly came with its own heatsink - I don't
recall. Seems to be running sufficient cool: psensor saying 98øF. I do try to get reasonable airflow inside my computers so that might help in
the cooling. Also, it generally sits there bored, its main function to supply storage for the Virtual Machines.

Silver has one for I don't know what (currently
other-drive-is-busy let's-prevent-fragmentation storage) and one
that does swapfile, temp and browser cache, and VMs (3
partitions).

That unknown function is interesting: of course the obvious question is
how do we know the NVMe is doing its job if we don't know what its job
is?! ...Must have come from a government computer - DMV?!

Zombie (the "dead" gamer board) apparently can only support ONE
NVMe, no matter where it is -- still haven't found one that the
mainboard slot supports, but it'll boot off one in a PCIe card.
But only ONE. Two on the card, or one on each of two cards, nope
-- only one is seen. The joys of between-generation tech...

Being sort of curious, especially when you the usual go-to guy doesn't
know, did a quickie Google search:

2 NVMe SSDs require 4 PCIe lanes to operate. PCIe x16: your motherboard
often has a primary x16 slot for GPUs and additional x16 slots. 16
PCIe lanes can support an expansion card with 4 additional M. 2 NVMe
SSDs.

https://www.sabrepc.com/blog/Computer-Hardware/how-to-add-m-2-nvme-ssd-to-your- otherboard

So PCIe issue? I haven't read the article yet but based on that snippet
either something not turned on (or off) in the BIOS or something like
the video card - and maybe the other PCIe cards - using the lanes the
other NVMe wants. Does seem off the motherboard has the NVMe slots but
not the capabilities.

Silver is older, and doesn't natively support NVMe. But a driver
exists, and the limit seems to be "how many can you stuff in
here?"

That's my kind of motherboard!!

KM> But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.
Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the

I'd think so. I've developed the impression that NVMe heatsinks
and other blather are mostly for gamers who are doing huge reads repeatedly, already have a system full of bling and overclocking
heat, and that starts heat-tripping the drive.

Could also be a mindset of 'Heat Sinks Are Good!' and the manufacturer
add a 2› part to establish a $5 additional cost.

Had the 1TB NVMe
(on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day
and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on.
Case hanging open, but no case fan, just a CPU fan barely running
and whatever the PSU has, also on low. Probably won't bother with
a secondary case fan, doesn't seem very necessary. (Also won't
have a bunch of hot spinning rust internal drives.... doors hang
open on Silver's spinnies in hotswap bays).

I read somewhere too many fans is unnecessary and sometimes even work
against each other.

NVMe is not mounted over anything creating a lot of heat. Sure, the electronics creates some heat, but the fractional-watt of heat is easily blown away, unlike the amount of heat produced by CPUs.

I sure have come to appreciate the heatpipe coolers. Even the
most minimal model is miles better than the best solid-core type.
I have cheap little HP salvage coolers on Silver (i7-4820k) and
Fireball (Xeon about equivalent), and they idle just above
ambient and work hard at about 45C. Zombie has a slightly faster
Xeon, the first cheap heatpipe with a copper foot and a fan that
came to hand, and is stable at 43C with the fan running about as
low as it goes (and in the middle of the heatsink, so probably
not as efficient).

To me it would seem more efficient to be able to move some of the heat
away from the source and redistribute to other parts of the heat sink --
give additional removal spots. Sort of like the old stove/furnace in
the middle of the house: hot next to the stove, cooler in the corners of
that central room, but the cold in the next room. Add ductwork to
distribute the stove heat into the adjoining rooms -- ahhh!

The rather-slower i5 that came on Zombie had been heat-tripped
(HSF wasn't even touching for the most part) and firmly believes
it runs at 99C all the time, even when it's barely warm. BUT...
otherwise it still works.

The sensor could either be damaged/stuck or the software reading the
sensor is incorrect. I've seen oddball readings on my hardware
indicating the device is at freezinf (0øC) or thinks it has liquid
nitrogen cooling (super-cold reading).

I sort of did heat experiments on my Raspberry Pi's over time. Poor
thing overheating: add the heat sinks: ahh! ...Some time later after upgrades, more software being worked one, etc., "I'm starting to sweat again!" Add a fan -- "thank you!". Fan doesn't have to move the air
all that quickly, just move it like a barely-perceptible breeze.

Yeah, it's mighty variable, but a good general rule is...
Everything likes a fan!

Moving away that heated air is a good thing!

.. Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent and reboot.
Order shall return.

Some Haiku reflect
words of insight and beauty
but this one does not

You tried!


¯ ®
¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ®
¯ ®


... Some Haiku express
depths of insight and beauty
but this one does not.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA

--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
* Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1)

BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!

> When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra
KM> Silver has one for I don't know what (currently
KM> other-drive-is-busy let's-prevent-fragmentation storage) and one
KM> that does swapfile, temp and browser cache, and VMs (3
KM> partitions).

That unknown function is interesting: of course the obvious question is
how do we know the NVMe is doing its job if we don't know what its job
is?! ...Must have come from a government computer - DMV?!

LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in particular, tho
at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll eventually accumulate
enough temporary crap to fill it up. ("Only" 512GB.)

KM> Zombie (the "dead" gamer board) apparently can only support ONE
KM> NVMe, no matter where it is -- still haven't found one that the
KM> mainboard slot supports, but it'll boot off one in a PCIe card.
KM> But only ONE. Two on the card, or one on each of two cards, nope
KM> -- only one is seen. The joys of between-generation tech...

Being sort of curious, especially when you the usual go-to guy doesn't
know, did a quickie Google search:

Hadn't looked. <g>

2 NVMe SSDs require 4 PCIe lanes to operate. PCIe x16: your motherboard
often has a primary x16 slot for GPUs and additional x16 slots. 16
PCIe lanes can support an expansion card with 4 additional M. 2 NVMe
SSDs.

https://www.sabrepc.com/blog/Computer-Hardware/how-to-add-m-2-nvme-ssd-to-your-
otherboard

Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes (and
the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the Asus-branded one,
and probably is, except for the fancy cover). But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be able to support splitting the PCIe
bus between two or more NVMes. And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does.

So PCIe issue? I haven't read the article yet but based on that snippet either something not turned on (or off) in the BIOS or something like
the video card - and maybe the other PCIe cards - using the lanes the
other NVMe wants. Does seem off the motherboard has the NVMe slots but
not the capabilities.

That could be. But Silver's mainboard is two years older and has zero
issues with NVMes on two different cards. Then again, in some ways
Silver's (Asus P9X79 LE) is a more competent board; it was designed for
more than just gamer appeal; for one thing it supports 64GB RAM, which
at the time was found only in servers and workstations. (Fireball, same
age, dedicated workstation board, supports 192GB, more than most do
today.) Used Asus P9X79 boards (initially popular with cryptominers,
probably because all the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as
budget server and workstation mainboards.

That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU cards, which
I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb shared RAM, so I haven't
even bothered with a vidcard.

KM> Silver is older, and doesn't natively support NVMe. But a driver
KM> exists, and the limit seems to be "how many can you stuff in
KM> here?"

That's my kind of motherboard!!

Mine too!!!

> KM> But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.
> Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the
KM> I'd think so. I've developed the impression that NVMe heatsinks
KM> and other blather are mostly for gamers who are doing huge reads
KM> repeatedly, already have a system full of bling and overclocking
KM> heat, and that starts heat-tripping the drive.

Could also be a mindset of 'Heat Sinks Are Good!' and the manufacturer
add a 2› part to establish a $5 additional cost.

Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes either with
or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And...

KM> Had the 1TB NVMe
KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day
KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on.

Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the touch.

KM> Case hanging open, but no case fan, just a CPU fan barely running
KM> and whatever the PSU has, also on low. Probably won't bother with
KM> a secondary case fan, doesn't seem very necessary. (Also won't
KM> have a bunch of hot spinning rust internal drives.... doors hang
KM> open on Silver's spinnies in hotswap bays).

I read somewhere too many fans is unnecessary and sometimes even work
against each other.

Depends. Normally the PSU has an exhaust fan (sometimes its own intake
fan, too) and that really isn't enough. When the case is full of Hot
Stuff, I like to add an intake fan to the case, which also keeps a lot
of the dust and particularly lint out of the case. Otherwise that PSU
fan creates enough vacuum to suck crud into every orifice (can be enough
to totally clog up a floppy or optical drive). So give it a dedicated
air source instead, and a filter mesh on the outside of that, if need be.

Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so I'm not
alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.)

Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their top-of-the-line
$4000 system was probably the worst I've ever seen. Tinker came to me as
a two year old because it wouldn't stay running even with
then-newfangled water cooling, but still using the dedicated air
funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap, gave it a normal HSF and a
case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and it ran stable until the capacitors
went a few years later. (Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've
seen, too.)

To me it would seem more efficient to be able to move some of the heat
away from the source and redistribute to other parts of the heat sink --
give additional removal spots. Sort of like the old stove/furnace in

The heatsink is supposed to remove heat from the chip, not just move it around. It does no good to reheat another fin, and may harm heat flow.
It needs to flow out the fins as directly as possible, that's all there
is to it. Of course a larger slug can absorb more heat, but may not
release it efficiently. Best seems to be a middling slug (big enough
that it doesn't overheat, small enough that it doesn't also store a lot
of heat) and lots of very conductive fins, with or without their own
fan. (many server CPUs are passively-cooled, but use copper heatsinks.)

Here is the real trick: copper everywhere you can have it. HSF foot,
contact slug or heatpipes, and if possible the fins too. On a
middling-hot AMD (well, all AMDs run relatively hot) I swapped the
default aluminum HSF for an otherwise nearly-identical all-copper HSF
(fins too), and its running temperature dropped 40F degrees.

And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug type.

the middle of the house: hot next to the stove, cooler in the corners of
that central room, but the cold in the next room. Add ductwork to
distribute the stove heat into the adjoining rooms -- ahhh!

That's more like moving air around inside the case, which is basically a
lot of leaky ductwork.

KM> The rather-slower i5 that came on Zombie had been heat-tripped
KM> (HSF wasn't even touching for the most part) and firmly believes
KM> it runs at 99C all the time, even when it's barely warm. BUT...
KM> otherwise it still works.

The sensor could either be damaged/stuck or the software reading the
sensor is incorrect. I've seen oddball readings on my hardware
indicating the device is at freezinf (0øC) or thinks it has liquid
nitrogen cooling (super-cold reading).

No, it had definitely been heat-tripped (remember it came to me because
it was at best flaky and had been deemed dead), and probably that set a
flag in the CPU so now it believes if it's powered on, it's that hot. It
takes seconds to get there, even if it's barely warm to the touch.
Likely it's meant to indicate it ought to be replaced, but it behaves
fine with better cooling. But the "new" Xeon is so much faster, I don't
care what the i5 thinks. :D

.. Some Haiku express
depths of insight and beauty
but this one does not.

That's the one I couldn't quite remember!
þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com

--- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462
* Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1)

Hi Ky!

> When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra
KM> Silver has one for I don't know what (currently
KM> other-drive-is-busy let's-prevent-fragmentation storage) and one
KM> that does swapfile, temp and browser cache, and VMs (3
KM> partitions).
That unknown function is interesting: of course the obvious question is
how do we know the NVMe is doing its job if we don't know what its job
is?! ...Must have come from a government computer - DMV?!

LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in
particular, tho at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll eventually accumulate enough temporary crap to fill it up.
("Only" 512GB.)

That could fill up real quickly or take forever, depending on the
function. <g>

KM> Zombie (the "dead" gamer board) apparently can only support ONE
KM> NVMe, no matter where it is -- still haven't found one that the
KM> mainboard slot supports, but it'll boot off one in a PCIe card.
KM> But only ONE. Two on the card, or one on each of two cards, nope
KM> -- only one is seen. The joys of between-generation tech...
Being sort of curious, especially when you the usual go-to guy doesn't
know, did a quickie Google search:

Hadn't looked. <g>

Bing? GoGoDuck? <g>

2 NVMe SSDs require 4 PCIe lanes to operate. PCIe x16: your motherboard
often has a primary x16 slot for GPUs and additional x16 slots. 16
PCIe lanes can support an expansion card with 4 additional M. 2 NVMe
SSDs.

ttps://www.sabrepc.com/blog/Computer-Hardware/how-to-add-m-2-nvme-ssd-to-you

-

otherboard

Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes
(and the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the
Asus-branded one, and probably is, except for the fancy cover).
But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be
able to support splitting the PCIe bus between two or more NVMes.
And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does.

Right: what semi-generic articles say and what the specific motherboard
does can be two different things. (semi-tangent:) I was reading about
eARC for a TV soundbar -- eARC was introduced with HDMI 2.1 and so
supports eARC but there's an 'asterisk statement': the manufacturer
decides what features incorporated and what are not.

So PCIe issue? I haven't read the article yet but based on that snippet either something not turned on (or off) in the BIOS or something like
the video card - and maybe the other PCIe cards - using the lanes the
other NVMe wants. Does seem off the motherboard has the NVMe slots but
not the capabilities.

That could be. But Silver's mainboard is two years older and has
zero issues with NVMes on two different cards. Then again, in
some ways Silver's (Asus P9X79 LE) is a more competent board; it
was designed for more than just gamer appeal; for one thing it
supports 64GB RAM, which at the time was found only in servers
and workstations. (Fireball, same age, dedicated workstation
board, supports 192GB, more than most do today.) Used Asus P9X79
boards (initially popular with cryptominers, probably because all
the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously
support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as budget server
and workstation mainboards.

"The manufacturer decides...".

That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU
cards, which I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty
good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb
shared RAM, so I haven't even bothered with a vidcard.

Right: if the video is sufficient for the viewing needs why bother with
a video card? The card would take away a PCIe channel which could be
used by the NVMe.

The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't
allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find
a third monitor would be handy.

> KM> But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no.
> Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the
KM> I'd think so. I've developed the impression that NVMe heatsinks
KM> and other blather are mostly for gamers who are doing huge reads
KM> repeatedly, already have a system full of bling and overclocking
KM> heat, and that starts heat-tripping the drive.
Could also be a mindset of 'Heat Sinks Are Good!' and the manufacturer
add a 2› part to establish a $5 additional cost.

Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes
either with or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And...

I'd tend to go with heat sinks but then I read when I was looking at RAM
about a year ago the material the manufacturer used to keep the heat
sink on the memory stick retained heat -- didn't pass the heat
effectively from the chips to the heat sink.

KM> Had the 1TB NVMe
KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day
KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on.

Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the
touch.

I'd say it was sufficiently cooling.

KM> Case hanging open, but no case fan, just a CPU fan barely running
KM> and whatever the PSU has, also on low. Probably won't bother with
KM> a secondary case fan, doesn't seem very necessary. (Also won't
KM> have a bunch of hot spinning rust internal drives.... doors hang
KM> open on Silver's spinnies in hotswap bays).
I read somewhere too many fans is unnecessary and sometimes even work against each other.

Depends. Normally the PSU has an exhaust fan (sometimes its own
intake fan, too) and that really isn't enough. When the case is
full of Hot Stuff, I like to add an intake fan to the case, which
also keeps a lot of the dust and particularly lint out of the
case. Otherwise that PSU fan creates enough vacuum to suck crud
into every orifice (can be enough to totally clog up a floppy or
optical drive). So give it a dedicated air source instead, and a
filter mesh on the outside of that, if need be.

BTDT! I don't consider the PSU fan(s) as chassis cooling. The chassis
fans should provide a directional breeze (vs. gale-force winds) to move
warm air out.

Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so
I'm not alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.)

I think all of my 'new' desktops have at least one chassis fan. Recall
at least one old computer where the CPU fan had a hood on it to blow the
hot air out of the case.

Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their
top-of-the-line $4000 system was probably the worst I've ever
seen. Tinker came to me as a two year old because it wouldn't
stay running even with then-newfangled water cooling, but still
using the dedicated air funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap,
gave it a normal HSF and a case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and
it ran stable until the capacitors went a few years later.
(Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've seen, too.)

But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because
back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the
specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I
needed to know.

To me it would seem more efficient to be able to move some of the heat
away from the source and redistribute to other parts of the heat sink -- give additional removal spots. Sort of like the old stove/furnace in

The heatsink is supposed to remove heat from the chip, not just
move it around. It does no good to reheat another fin, and may
harm heat flow. It needs to flow out the fins as directly as
possible, that's all there is to it. Of course a larger slug can
absorb more heat, but may not release it efficiently. Best seems
to be a middling slug (big enough that it doesn't overheat, small
enough that it doesn't also store a lot of heat) and lots of very conductive fins, with or without their own fan. (many server CPUs
are passively-cooled, but use copper heatsinks.)

Makes sense: one wants the heat to flow from hot (the chip) to cold (the
air). If the heat sink retains heat that doesn't help cooling the chip.
There is going to be some residual heat in the heat sink just because of 'inefficiencies' but overall the heat sink should pass on the heat.

Here is the real trick: copper everywhere you can have it. HSF
foot, contact slug or heatpipes, and if possible the fins too. On
a middling-hot AMD (well, all AMDs run relatively hot) I swapped
the default aluminum HSF for an otherwise nearly-identical
all-copper HSF (fins too), and its running temperature dropped
40F degrees.

Yup: on a previous system (it's still in use around here someplace) the
AMD CPU was overheating when the room temperature got warmer in later
Spring. At the time used the heatsink assembly provided by AMD with
their CPU. At the time to me it was if the manufacturer is fine with
this assembly so am I -- I'm not overclocking, gaming, etc. A little
birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly
with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about
50øF!

And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug
type.

More cooling area I'd guess.

KM> The rather-slower i5 that came on Zombie had been heat-tripped
KM> (HSF wasn't even touching for the most part) and firmly believes
KM> it runs at 99C all the time, even when it's barely warm. BUT...
KM> otherwise it still works.
The sensor could either be damaged/stuck or the software reading the
sensor is incorrect. I've seen oddball readings on my hardware
indicating the device is at freezinf (0øC) or thinks it has liquid
nitrogen cooling (super-cold reading).

No, it had definitely been heat-tripped (remember it came to me
because it was at best flaky and had been deemed dead), and
probably that set a flag in the CPU so now it believes if it's
powered on, it's that hot. It takes seconds to get there, even if
it's barely warm to the touch. Likely it's meant to indicate it
ought to be replaced, but it behaves fine with better cooling.
But the "new" Xeon is so much faster, I don't care what the i5
thinks. :D

It did get replaced: well, the owner did!

.. Some Haiku express
depths of insight and beauty
but this one does not.

That's the one I couldn't quite remember!

Glad to be of assistance!


¯ ®
¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ®
¯ ®


... Printer won't print: data stuck: traffic jam on information superhighway --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

Hi Ky!
KM> LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in
KM> particular, tho at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll
KM> eventually accumulate enough temporary crap to fill it up.
KM> ("Only" 512GB.)

That could fill up real quickly or take forever, depending on the
function. <g>

Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :)

> know, did a quickie Google search:
KM> Hadn't looked. <g>
Bing? GoGoDuck? <g>

Duckduckgo :)

I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came along.

KM> Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes
KM> (and the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the
KM> Asus-branded one, and probably is, except for the fancy cover).
KM> But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be
KM> able to support splitting the PCIe bus between two or more NVMes.
KM> And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does.

Right: what semi-generic articles say and what the specific motherboard
does can be two different things. (semi-tangent:) I was reading about
eARC for a TV soundbar -- eARC was introduced with HDMI 2.1 and so
supports eARC but there's an 'asterisk statement': the manufacturer
decides what features incorporated and what are not.

The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast support,
and the deficiency is not documented.

KM> board, supports 192GB, more than most do today.) Used Asus P9X79
KM> boards (initially popular with cryptominers, probably because all
KM> the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously
KM> support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as budget server
KM> and workstation mainboards.

"The manufacturer decides...".

The mfgr didn't finish deciding....

BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double RAM
amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU.

KM> That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU
KM> cards, which I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty
KM> good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb
KM> shared RAM, so I haven't even bothered with a vidcard.

Right: if the video is sufficient for the viewing needs why bother with
a video card? The card would take away a PCIe channel which could be
used by the NVMe.

Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than making me
tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will see the rest of
the network, other than very intermittently. And it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the other 10/11 boxen that work fine
(for Win10/11 values of 'fine' -- that is, access tends to be only one
way) and it does no better with Westworld's "portable" Win10 (that was installed on Westworld but doesn't care what PC the HDD is in) that
normally works perfectly with the local network. Same with onboard NIC
and MSI's own wifi card. Both see router and internet. Will sometimes
see linux box, but not always. Nothing else. Can sometimes be seen by
Silver, but not accessed.

Couldn't see the old PCI (not e) 3COM NIC I tried for troubleshooting,
and don't have a newer one instantly to hand.

The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't
allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find
a third monitor would be handy.

I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi HDMI)
ports on the board and claim all work at once.

Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk.

KM> Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes
KM> either with or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And...

I'd tend to go with heat sinks but then I read when I was looking at RAM about a year ago the material the manufacturer used to keep the heat
sink on the memory stick retained heat -- didn't pass the heat
effectively from the chips to the heat sink.

The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM
(Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em. Otherwise... they
use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which are INSULATORS, how exactly
is that supposed to work??

I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot
overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with fancy colored LEDs.

> KM> Had the 1TB NVMe
> KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day
> KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on.
KM> Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the
KM> touch.

I'd say it was sufficiently cooling.

Yeah, got itself right at the top of the "not to worry" list!
(WD 1TB Blue, happened to be on sale half price and was deemed adequate.)

The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot.

Oh, you can now get an NVMe hotswap bay, but they're still pricey.

BTDT! I don't consider the PSU fan(s) as chassis cooling. The chassis
fans should provide a directional breeze (vs. gale-force winds) to move
warm air out.

I think problems arise when people neglect to note that the average case
is effectively full of baffles, just from how they're constructed and
from being full of cards, and don't realize that you have to blow air
INTO a confused, er, baffled area, not ACROSS it (which may prevent circulation entirely).

KM> Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so
KM> I'm not alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.)

I think all of my 'new' desktops have at least one chassis fan. Recall
at least one old computer where the CPU fan had a hood on it to blow the
hot air out of the case.

Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement was most
of why that expensive Dell kept overheating.

KM> Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their
KM> top-of-the-line $4000 system was probably the worst I've ever
KM> seen. Tinker came to me as a two year old because it wouldn't
KM> stay running even with then-newfangled water cooling, but still
KM> using the dedicated air funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap,
KM> gave it a normal HSF and a case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and
KM> it ran stable until the capacitors went a few years later.
KM> (Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've seen, too.)

But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because
back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I
needed to know.

Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs
(Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or so,
and their business laptops have always been pretty durable. But yeah, in
the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary parts (including the
power connector from the PSU) and it was tough to replace anything but
with an expensive Dell-branded part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen
that could use off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have
proprietary PSUs, and good luck finding which without letting out the
magic smoke.

Makes sense: one wants the heat to flow from hot (the chip) to cold (the air). If the heat sink retains heat that doesn't help cooling the chip. There is going to be some residual heat in the heat sink just because of 'inefficiencies' but overall the heat sink should pass on the heat.

Right. I have a couple of those passive copper server heatsinks, made
for older Xeons (which ran rather hot). The foot is 1/3 inch thick and
they have about 50 very thin fins. They will not take a fan, so it was
all ambient air movement.

Yup: on a previous system (it's still in use around here someplace) the
AMD CPU was overheating when the room temperature got warmer in later
Spring. At the time used the heatsink assembly provided by AMD with
their CPU. At the time to me it was if the manufacturer is fine with
this assembly so am I -- I'm not overclocking, gaming, etc. A little

AMD assumes their retail market is all gamers, who are going to
overclock so will be replacing it anyway. So they always provide the
cheapest crap that still more or less appears to be a HSF. -- I may have
been the birdie. :D

birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly
with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about
50øF!

Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD gives
you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it.

Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will be at
least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for ordinary
consumer use.

KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug
KM> type.

More cooling area I'd guess.

Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big fin
array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat really
efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge condensers (there's
usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer CPUs, that's the only sort
I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy -- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver
and Fireball do a stellar job, both idle just above ambient and about
45C if busy. Paid about the same for the one in Zombie, a little
fancier, and that slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C.

KM> No, it had definitely been heat-tripped (remember it came to me
KM> because it was at best flaky and had been deemed dead), and
KM> probably that set a flag in the CPU so now it believes if it's
KM> powered on, it's that hot. It takes seconds to get there, even if
KM> it's barely warm to the touch. Likely it's meant to indicate it
KM> ought to be replaced, but it behaves fine with better cooling.
KM> But the "new" Xeon is so much faster, I don't care what the i5
KM> thinks. :D

It did get replaced: well, the owner did!

LOL. Yup. PEBKAC in action. :D

Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient) started
falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out that's how long one
of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not that it matters when its sole job
is to play DOOM. But the overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan
and now it turns much better; will have to check if it plans to stay
working or if I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan.

Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to replace
the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered the $170 "used"
board with some trepidation about the possibility of bad capacitors on a
20 year old board. I received the exact same board but brand new
(current manufacture) that presently retails for $460 direct from the
mfgr, and has solid capacitors, and came with a core2duo instead of a
plain P4. Same model number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D
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Hi Ky!

KM> LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in
KM> particular, tho at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll
KM> eventually accumulate enough temporary crap to fill it up.
KM> ("Only" 512GB.)
That could fill up real quickly or take forever, depending on the
function. <g>

Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :)

"When no other RAM will take you in, we will!"

> know, did a quickie Google search:
KM> Hadn't looked. <g>
Bing? GoGoDuck? <g>

Duckduckgo :)

Just answered Ed and his AI question (well, 'replied' more like it!);
wonder if the AI stuff would have been 'smart' enough to suggest
DuckDuckGo for my GoGoDuck, or would it have taken me to a GIF for a
1970's Disco Duck?!

I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came
along.

I'll admit to sort of fallen into the trap of the default search engine
is Google -- Firefox deleted it for a while and got some severe backlash
-- and forget about the others.

KM> Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes
KM> (and the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the
KM> Asus-branded one, and probably is, except for the fancy cover).
KM> But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be
KM> able to support splitting the PCIe bus between two or more NVMes.
KM> And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does. Right: what semi-generic articles say and what the specific motherboard
does can be two different things. (semi-tangent:) I was reading about
eARC for a TV soundbar -- eARC was introduced with HDMI 2.1 and so
supports eARC but there's an 'asterisk statement': the manufacturer
decides what features incorporated and what are not.

The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast
support, and the deficiency is not documented.

Seems like they wanted to put out a board that supported multiple
NMVe's, created the mechanics for it (board placement, connections, just couldn't figure the programming in time for the release. Maybe even
figured a BIOS update when they did figure it out.

KM> board, supports 192GB, more than most do today.) Used Asus P9X79
KM> boards (initially popular with cryptominers, probably because all
KM> the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously
KM> support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as budget server
KM> and workstation mainboards.
"The manufacturer decides...".

The mfgr didn't finish deciding....

I did hate those long unproductive meetings!

BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double
RAM amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU.

I don't think I have motherboards here like that. For me would be a new
MB and probably RAM and I'd figure the '2x RAM' was probably a
mislabelling: 64 GB labelled as 32.

KM> That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU
KM> cards, which I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty
KM> good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb
KM> shared RAM, so I haven't even bothered with a vidcard.
Right: if the video is sufficient for the viewing needs why bother with
a video card? The card would take away a PCIe channel which could be
used by the NVMe.

Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than
making me tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will
see the rest of the network, other than very intermittently. And
it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the
other 10/11 boxen that work fine (for Win10/11 values of 'fine'
-- that is, access tends to be only one way) and it does no
better with Westworld's "portable" Win10 (that was installed on
Westworld but doesn't care what PC the HDD is in) that normally
works perfectly with the local network. Same with onboard NIC and
MSI's own wifi card. Both see router and internet. Will sometimes
see linux box, but not always. Nothing else. Can sometimes be
seen by Silver, but not accessed.
Couldn't see the old PCI (not e) 3COM NIC I tried for
troubleshooting, and don't have a newer one instantly to hand.

Half-wondering 'timing'? Components taking too long to respond to the
(CPU's) "you out there?" probe? (Translate that to tech-speak!) I've
run into instances where my Raspberry Pi's will boot but not see another computer on the network. Connects fine with a manual 'mount' command. (Solution is a 'wait for' type command in the boot sequence.)

The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't
allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find
a third monitor would be handy.

I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi
HDMI) ports on the board and claim all work at once.

None of the motherboards here have that. Do have HDMI and DVI (and sometimes/usually VGA -- haven't used VGA in ages). And part of the
problem was me not looking for it: Only recently have I started needing
more monitor space.

Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk.

Which reads if Ky adds any more weight (like another monitor) to his
present desk it'll fall apart! <g>

Desk cnsiderations are 'interesting': I've seen computer desks which are nothing more than a slab of wood on two stands. I need drawers for
storage!

Desk surface itself -- and speaking of monitors. My desk won't accept
the clamp-on monitor stands: not enough overlap (or whatever the
goes-beyond the sides is called). Back surface (against the wall) is
covered with a thin sheet of wood -- probably adds to the stability.
Could cut a hole for the clamp (measure how far back the drawer goes!)
but LIS this desk is pretty close to the wall and I could get a clamp to
fit. (It's a large corner desk, so heavy and basically impossible to
move without taking apart.)

KM> Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes
KM> either with or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And...
I'd tend to go with heat sinks but then I read when I was looking at RAM about a year ago the material the manufacturer used to keep the heat
sink on the memory stick retained heat -- didn't pass the heat
effectively from the chips to the heat sink.

The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM
(Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em.
Otherwise... they use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which
are INSULATORS, how exactly is that supposed to work??

Touches heatsink - nice and cool -- must be working!

I don't buy that much RAM but when I do if the only option is with (or without) a heatsink the decision is easy. If the manufacturer offers
both I usually look around for user comments to see which is preferred.
Either way make sure there is a breesze over the modules to move away
the heat!

I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with
fancy colored LEDs.

I tend to agree: same way they offer RAM in various colours: I don't
care if it's hot pink, just do the job! ...I do have some coloured
modules: were less expensive than the black!

> KM> Had the 1TB NVMe
> KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day
> KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on.
KM> Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the
KM> touch.
I'd say it was sufficiently cooling.

Yeah, got itself right at the top of the "not to worry" list!
(WD 1TB Blue, happened to be on sale half price and was deemed
adequate.)

Half-price is good!!

The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot.

Warm is fine. When things start getting hot then time to start figuring
out how to cool back down. ..Of course, one had to know it's getting
hot!

BTDT! I don't consider the PSU fan(s) as chassis cooling. The chassis fans should provide a directional breeze (vs. gale-force winds) to move
warm air out.

I think problems arise when people neglect to note that the
average case is effectively full of baffles, just from how
they're constructed and from being full of cards, and don't
realize that you have to blow air INTO a confused, er, baffled
area, not ACROSS it (which may prevent circulation entirely).

Right. Air is going to take the path of least resistance, so
essentially straight through, probably with a few curves around
hardware. That leaves the poor component in the corner possibly
'sweating' from stagnent air! I have added fans in odd places just to
be sure air is moving there. Not too concerned with motherboard
components but a daughtercard stuck in the bottom slot might appreciate
the added breeze!

KM> Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so
KM> I'm not alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.)
I think all of my 'new' desktops have at least one chassis fan. Recall
at least one old computer where the CPU fan had a hood on it to blow the
hot air out of the case.

Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement
was most of why that expensive Dell kept overheating.

IIRC mine also had a chassis fan. The CPU hood seemed to be mostly to
direct the hot air out and not mix into the chassis air. ...OTOH, if
the chassis air is being pulled out properly then the relatively small
amount of CPU air should not make a significant difference. (IOW
you're probably right -- the hood seemed to be a bill of goods.)

KM> Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their
KM> top-of-the-line $4000 system was probably the worst I've ever
KM> seen. Tinker came to me as a two year old because it wouldn't
KM> stay running even with then-newfangled water cooling, but still
KM> using the dedicated air funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap,
KM> gave it a normal HSF and a case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and
KM> it ran stable until the capacitors went a few years later.
KM> (Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've seen, too.)
But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because
back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I
needed to know.

Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs
(Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or
so, and their business laptops have always been pretty durable.
But yeah, in the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary
parts (including the power connector from the PSU) and it was
tough to replace anything but with an expensive Dell-branded
part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen that could use
off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have proprietary PSUs,
and good luck finding which without letting out the magic smoke.

Essentially right: I don't have nearly as much experience as you so
don't have a solid opinion. Over the years Dell seems to have a solid business foundation. That could be partially price (business orders 500 computers, save $50 on each, that's $25,000!). Could also be easy customination -- we don't need a super-sharp video display but we do
need speed... put in the cheap video card, and fill the RAM slots with
16GB modules. In the mean time I'm trying to buy a single unit.
Probably same base components: motherboard and chassis. What's the CPU?
Well, could be .... What's the video? Well... What's the memory?
...My guess is I was sort of getting the leftover from that day's
business production.

(And to reinterate: that was years ago.)

Makes sense: one wants the heat to flow from hot (the chip) to cold (the air). If the heat sink retains heat that doesn't help cooling the chip. There is going to be some residual heat in the heat sink just because of 'inefficiencies' but overall the heat sink should pass on the heat.

Right. I have a couple of those passive copper server heatsinks,
made for older Xeons (which ran rather hot). The foot is 1/3 inch
thick and they have about 50 very thin fins. They will not take a
fan, so it was all ambient air movement.

Chassis fans to the rescue!

Yup: on a previous system (it's still in use around here someplace) the
AMD CPU was overheating when the room temperature got warmer in later Spring. At the time used the heatsink assembly provided by AMD with
their CPU. At the time to me it was if the manufacturer is fine with
this assembly so am I -- I'm not overclocking, gaming, etc. A little

AMD assumes their retail market is all gamers, who are going to
overclock so will be replacing it anyway. So they always provide
the cheapest crap that still more or less appears to be a HSF. --
I may have been the birdie. :D

Quite possibly!

birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly
with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about
50øF!

Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD
gives you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was
more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no
work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it.

In that case I was lucky: the computer would reboot overnight.

Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will
be at least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for
ordinary consumer use.

It still seems odd to me to be provided a junk heatsink/fan. I'd rather
not get it, not be charged, and so pay a little less for the CPU and
apply that money to the cooler of my choice.

KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug
KM> type.
More cooling area I'd guess.

Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big
fin array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat
really efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge
condensers (there's usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer
CPUs, that's the only sort I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy
-- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver and Fireball do a stellar job,
both idle just above ambient and about 45C if busy. Paid about
the same for the one in Zombie, a little fancier, and that
slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C.

That makes sense. Know the foot is pretty much going to be limited by
the size of the CPU it is sitting on -- any overlap doesn't have much of
a function. Moving the heat throughout the cooling fins can allow for
more cooling with less surface.

Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient)
started falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out
that's how long one of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not
that it matters when its sole job is to play DOOM. But the
overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan and now it turns
much better; will have to check if it plans to stay working or if
I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan.

I've resurrected quite a few fans of various types (including household)
with a good air dusting and sewing machine oil. Sometimes with computer
fans the problem is simply a build-up of dust: clogging cooling fins or
a build up on the edges and eventually stopping the spinning.

Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to
replace the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered
the $170 "used" board with some trepidation about the possibility
of bad capacitors on a 20 year old board. I received the exact
same board but brand new (current manufacture) that presently
retails for $460 direct from the mfgr, and has solid capacitors,
and came with a core2duo instead of a plain P4. Same model
number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D

It's sometimes nice when they hire cheap labour that doesn't know what
they're doing other than hand over the requested part!

¯ ®
¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ®
¯ ®


... Why don't skeletons go Trick-or-Treating? Because no body to go with.
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BARRY MARTIN wrote:

KM> Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :)
"When no other RAM will take you in, we will!"

Sweet home surplus storage!

> > know, did a quickie Google search:
> KM> Hadn't looked. <g>
> Bing? GoGoDuck? <g>
KM> Duckduckgo :)
Just answered Ed and his AI question (well, 'replied' more like it!);
wonder if the AI stuff would have been 'smart' enough to suggest
DuckDuckGo for my GoGoDuck, or would it have taken me to a GIF for a
1970's Disco Duck?!

Try it :D

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22gogoduck%22&norw=1&t=chromentp&ia=web

KM> I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came
KM> along.

I'll admit to sort of fallen into the trap of the default search engine
is Google -- Firefox deleted it for a while and got some severe backlash
-- and forget about the others.

I don't know how anyone uses Google anymore -- not worth wading through
the bogus and sponsored links. DDG is at least paring out some of the bot-generated "information" sites.

KM> The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast
KM> support, and the deficiency is not documented.

Seems like they wanted to put out a board that supported multiple
NMVe's, created the mechanics for it (board placement, connections, just couldn't figure the programming in time for the release. Maybe even
figured a BIOS update when they did figure it out.

Except the deficiency is probably in absent PCIe circuitry, which a BIOS update ain't gonna fix.

> "The manufacturer decides...".
KM> The mfgr didn't finish deciding....
I did hate those long unproductive meetings!

LOL, might be. I was kinda surprised, tho, cuz MSI doesn't usually do
things halfway. But the gamer market corrupts everything, because there
it only has to look good and paint the screen fast, it doesn't actually
have to be good for anything else. Forget if I mentioned it but in gamer boards, MSI and some others (but apparently not Asus) you really can
have only 16GB of RAM before it starts working against itself
(performance hit) because no game uses more than 16GB (Playstation limit
and why do limit-different versions?) so that's what they design for.

Another reason to go for a workstation board if you have the choice and
need more than 16GB RAM.

KM> BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double
KM> RAM amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU.

I don't think I have motherboards here like that. For me would be a new
MB and probably RAM and I'd figure the '2x RAM' was probably a
mislabelling: 64 GB labelled as 32.

I wonder about Silver's board since it supports Xeon. But don't have the bigger sticks to test, nor another Xeon CPU of the right specs (its i7
already maxes out the board). Fireball has the same chipset and supports 192GB, with a Xeon. And as it is Silver has 64GB RAM and (given the OS
is XP64, rather economical on RAM use compared to current OSs) rarely
uses more than about 8GB unless I'm running the big Win8 VM (I gave it
16GB), so there's not much motivation.

KM> Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than
KM> making me tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will
KM> see the rest of the network, other than very intermittently. And
KM> it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the

Half-wondering 'timing'? Components taking too long to respond to the
(CPU's) "you out there?" probe? (Translate that to tech-speak!) I've
run into instances where my Raspberry Pi's will boot but not see another computer on the network. Connects fine with a manual 'mount' command. (Solution is a 'wait for' type command in the boot sequence.)

Nope. When they're ten feet apart you're not dealing with lag, and
network discovery only takes a few seconds. If it were a 10baseT or A/B
wifi, maybe timeouts would happen, but it's none of the above.

> The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't
> allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find
> a third monitor would be handy.
KM> I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi
KM> HDMI) ports on the board and claim all work at once.

None of the motherboards here have that. Do have HDMI and DVI (and sometimes/usually VGA -- haven't used VGA in ages). And part of the
problem was me not looking for it: Only recently have I started needing
more monitor space.

I've seen a few workstation boards with a whole cluster of video out.
VGA, DVI, and two HDMI.

KM> Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk.

Which reads if Ky adds any more weight (like another monitor) to his
present desk it'll fall apart! <g>

More like if I add anything more to the desk, it'll fall off! It's a reasonable desk (for pressboard crap that cost me the trouble to fetch
from down the road, and several screws to fix where it's coming apart)
in terms of design, just all filled up.

Desk cnsiderations are 'interesting': I've seen computer desks which are nothing more than a slab of wood on two stands. I need drawers for
storage!

And shelves. Extra shelves at all levels, including for keyboard. And
more places to stick midtower cases where you can also vent and reach
their backsides.

Someday it'll fall apart and then I'll be motivated to scrounge through
the woodpile for 2x6 planks and build a new one. Maybe. Someday.

KM> The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM
KM> (Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em.
KM> Otherwise... they use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which
KM> are INSULATORS, how exactly is that supposed to work??

Touches heatsink - nice and cool -- must be working!

Just not how you expect!

I don't buy that much RAM but when I do if the only option is with (or without) a heatsink the decision is easy. If the manufacturer offers
both I usually look around for user comments to see which is preferred. Either way make sure there is a breesze over the modules to move away
the heat!

Yeah, that's really the key.

KM> I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot
KM> overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with
KM> fancy colored LEDs.

I tend to agree: same way they offer RAM in various colours: I don't
care if it's hot pink, just do the job! ...I do have some coloured
modules: were less expensive than the black!

Yeah, so long as it's not flashing lights at me, I don't care. Tho I
have a lighted Cherry keyboard that does continuously-shifting rainbow backlighting. Not real bright and makes the keys much easier to see!
(You can turn it off, if you want.)

KM> The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot.
Warm is fine. When things start getting hot then time to start figuring
out how to cool back down. ..Of course, one had to know it's getting
hot!

By the blister on your finger!

KM> Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement
KM> was most of why that expensive Dell kept overheating.

IIRC mine also had a chassis fan. The CPU hood seemed to be mostly to
direct the hot air out and not mix into the chassis air. ...OTOH, if
the chassis air is being pulled out properly then the relatively small
amount of CPU air should not make a significant difference. (IOW
you're probably right -- the hood seemed to be a bill of goods.)

That, exactly. All it really did was prevent air from reaching the CPU
from the sides, so it was mostly just moving around its own hot air.

> But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because
> back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the
> specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I
> needed to know.
KM> Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs
KM> (Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or
KM> so, and their business laptops have always been pretty durable.
KM> But yeah, in the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary
KM> parts (including the power connector from the PSU) and it was
KM> tough to replace anything but with an expensive Dell-branded
KM> part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen that could use
KM> off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have proprietary PSUs,
KM> and good luck finding which without letting out the magic smoke.

Essentially right: I don't have nearly as much experience as you so
don't have a solid opinion. Over the years Dell seems to have a solid business foundation. That could be partially price (business orders 500 computers, save $50 on each, that's $25,000!). Could also be easy

Yeah, business literally buys 'em by the pallet, or the truckload. Every
3 years if they have liability concerns (didn't use the latest supported whatever? then the fail is your fault! My sister's office won't even
keep a car that's out of warranty, millions of dollars of liability if a building falls down... legal fault lands on 'unsupported' no matter
whose fault it actually was.)

customination -- we don't need a super-sharp video display but we do
need speed... put in the cheap video card, and fill the RAM slots with
16GB modules. In the mean time I'm trying to buy a single unit.
Probably same base components: motherboard and chassis. What's the CPU? Well, could be .... What's the video? Well... What's the memory?

Why has no one heard of using one of the hardware spec utilities??
Speccy for one.

..My guess is I was sort of getting the leftover from that day's
business production.

Like most of mine now. :)

> birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly
> with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about
> 50øF!
KM> Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD
KM> gives you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was
KM> more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no
KM> work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it.

In that case I was lucky: the computer would reboot overnight.

Yeah, might be the BIOS was set to heat-trip below a temp that killed
the CPU. Moonbase's old board can do that, set heat trip temp wherever
you want.

KM> Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will
KM> be at least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for
KM> ordinary consumer use.

It still seems odd to me to be provided a junk heatsink/fan. I'd rather
not get it, not be charged, and so pay a little less for the CPU and
apply that money to the cooler of my choice.

That, exactly. Intel give you the choice -- buy the kit or the naked
CPU. But at the time AMD didn't. I don't know what they do now, ain't
buying AMD anyway.

> KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug
> KM> type.
> More cooling area I'd guess.
KM> Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big
KM> fin array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat
KM> really efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge
KM> condensers (there's usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer
KM> CPUs, that's the only sort I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy
KM> -- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver and Fireball do a stellar job,
KM> both idle just above ambient and about 45C if busy. Paid about
KM> the same for the one in Zombie, a little fancier, and that
KM> slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C.

That makes sense. Know the foot is pretty much going to be limited by
the size of the CPU it is sitting on -- any overlap doesn't have much of
a function. Moving the heat throughout the cooling fins can allow for
more cooling with less surface.

Well, any overlap can still serve as thermal mass. But you're usually
limited by the boundaries of the CPU socket that stick up, adjacent capacitors, etc.

KM> Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient)
KM> started falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out
KM> that's how long one of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and
KM> heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not
KM> that it matters when its sole job is to play DOOM. But the
KM> overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan and now it turns
KM> much better; will have to check if it plans to stay working or if
KM> I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan.

I've resurrected quite a few fans of various types (including household)
with a good air dusting and sewing machine oil. Sometimes with computer
fans the problem is simply a build-up of dust: clogging cooling fins or
a build up on the edges and eventually stopping the spinning.

More often it's wear in fans with sleeve bearings. The bearing gets
sticky and dries out, and oiling will help make it slick again but can't
fix the wear. So they never resurrect for long. Ball bearings type will resurrect more reliably, but can become very noisy.

KM> Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to
KM> replace the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered
KM> the $170 "used" board with some trepidation about the possibility
KM> of bad capacitors on a 20 year old board. I received the exact
KM> same board but brand new (current manufacture) that presently
KM> retails for $460 direct from the mfgr, and has solid capacitors,
KM> and came with a core2duo instead of a plain P4. Same model
KM> number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D

It's sometimes nice when they hire cheap labour that doesn't know what they're doing other than hand over the requested part!

Was twice in a row I didn't get what I ordered, but got what I wanted
instead. <g>
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Hi Ky!

KM> Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :)
"When no other RAM will take you in, we will!"

Sweet home surplus storage!

Isn't that a Lynyrd Skynrd song?

> > know, did a quickie Google search:
> KM> Hadn't looked. <g>
> Bing? GoGoDuck? <g>
KM> Duckduckgo :)
Just answered Ed and his AI question (well, 'replied' more like it!);
wonder if the AI stuff would have been 'smart' enough to suggest
DuckDuckGo for my GoGoDuck, or would it have taken me to a GIF for a
1970's Disco Duck?!

Try it :D

See you in an hour or so after my sidetrack expedition!

KM> I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came
KM> along.
I'll admit to sort of fallen into the trap of the default search engine
is Google -- Firefox deleted it for a while and got some severe backlash
-- and forget about the others.

I don't know how anyone uses Google anymore -- not worth wading
through the bogus and sponsored links. DDG is at least paring out
some of the bot-generated "information" sites.

Well you know me! <g> As for the bogus and sponsored links, I guess I
haven't asked the questions to get those responses, and when I do scan
the summary and decide it's not what I'm looking for. Not saying I'm
not getting the bad links, just more have managed to avoid them.

KM> The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast
KM> support, and the deficiency is not documented.
Seems like they wanted to put out a board that supported multiple
NMVe's, created the mechanics for it (board placement, connections, just couldn't figure the programming in time for the release. Maybe even
figured a BIOS update when they did figure it out.

Except the deficiency is probably in absent PCIe circuitry, which
a BIOS update ain't gonna fix.

Just something a little soldering can't fix! <g>

> "The manufacturer decides...".
KM> The mfgr didn't finish deciding....
I did hate those long unproductive meetings!

LOL, might be. I was kinda surprised, tho, cuz MSI doesn't
usually do things halfway. But the gamer market corrupts
everything, because there it only has to look good and paint the
screen fast, it doesn't actually have to be good for anything
else. Forget if I mentioned it but in gamer boards, MSI and some
others (but apparently not Asus) you really can have only 16GB of
RAM before it starts working against itself (performance hit)
because no game uses more than 16GB (Playstation limit and why do limit-different versions?) so that's what they design for.

OK. I'm going to ask for a clarification here. There's MSI, and they manufacture (at least) two kinds of motherboards: one line aimed at
gamers and there's another line aimed at non-gamers. So a gamer
motherboard would essentially have its specifications capped at 16 GB
(because of the PlayStation limit). I'd also presume because of gaming
the video might be fantastic but the data processing aspect somewhat
limited. Their other line would not have the '16 GB limit', maybe same super-duper graphics but also have really good data processing. So for
my needs I'd want their non-gamer line, right?

Another reason to go for a workstation board if you have the
choice and need more than 16GB RAM.

I think I should have read your next sentence!

KM> BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double
KM> RAM amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU.
I don't think I have motherboards here like that. For me would be a new
MB and probably RAM and I'd figure the '2x RAM' was probably a
mislabelling: 64 GB labelled as 32.

I wonder about Silver's board since it supports Xeon. But don't
have the bigger sticks to test, nor another Xeon CPU of the right
specs (its i7 already maxes out the board). Fireball has the same
chipset and supports 192GB, with a Xeon. And as it is Silver has
64GB RAM and (given the OS is XP64, rather economical on RAM use
compared to current OSs) rarely uses more than about 8GB unless
I'm running the big Win8 VM (I gave it 16GB), so there's not much motivation.

Right: I tend to give the particular computer what I think it will use
plus a little more. A computer pretty much dedicated as a MythTV device
will probably get 8 or 16 GB of RAM whereas the MythTV Server has
<looking up> 32 GB -- actually it had 64 GB originally but one of the
sticks was faulty so returned and things working fine so when received
the replacement pair used elsewhere.

KM> Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than
KM> making me tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will
KM> see the rest of the network, other than very intermittently. And
KM> it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the Half-wondering 'timing'? Components taking too long to respond to the (CPU's) "you out there?" probe? (Translate that to tech-speak!) I've
run into instances where my Raspberry Pi's will boot but not see another computer on the network. Connects fine with a manual 'mount' command. (Solution is a 'wait for' type command in the boot sequence.)

Nope. When they're ten feet apart you're not dealing with lag,
and network discovery only takes a few seconds. If it were a
10baseT or A/B wifi, maybe timeouts would happen, but it's none
of the above.

So much for that guess! (10' apart, cable running along a antique
fluorescent ballast....<bseg>)

> The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't
> allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find
> a third monitor would be handy.
KM> I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi
KM> HDMI) ports on the board and claim all work at once.
None of the motherboards here have that. Do have HDMI and DVI (and sometimes/usually VGA -- haven't used VGA in ages). And part of the
problem was me not looking for it: Only recently have I started needing
more monitor space.

I've seen a few workstation boards with a whole cluster of video
out. VGA, DVI, and two HDMI.

I've probably seen them too, just at the time didn't need, or priced out
of my range.

KM> Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk.
Which reads if Ky adds any more weight (like another monitor) to his
present desk it'll fall apart! <g>

More like if I add anything more to the desk, it'll fall off!
It's a reasonable desk (for pressboard crap that cost me the
trouble to fetch from down the road, and several screws to fix
where it's coming apart) in terms of design, just all filled up.

Know that situation! My original computer stand -- think armoire style
-- was relatively sturdy except for some reason it started pulling apart because of being dragged on the carpet. (Hmm: the unit iself wasn't
exactly light, add two XTs, a CRT, and a printer -- what's its problem?!)

The 'floor glide' s;ider things didn't help, possibly made worse as they
sunk into the carpet. Did bolt in a couple of relatively long right-
angle brackets for re-inforcement at the bottom.

Desk cnsiderations are 'interesting': I've seen computer desks which are nothing more than a slab of wood on two stands. I need drawers for
storage!

And shelves. Extra shelves at all levels, including for keyboard.
And more places to stick midtower cases where you can also vent
and reach their backsides.

Storage! YES!!!!! I've added a shelf where the opening for a tower
computer is. The past few computers have been off the the (right) side
on a 'table' with one of the UPSs underneath. The printer slide-out is
now holds the shredder - and behind the shredder is storage for the
spare UPS batteries.

Someday it'll fall apart and then I'll be motivated to scrounge
through the woodpile for 2x6 planks and build a new one. Maybe.
Someday.

Which comes the afternoon of the current desk falling apart or something semi-valuable falling off current desk!

Speaking of storage, I have shelves on the wall: the standards are
screwed into the studs. Also 4' shelves (3/4") supported by 3 brackets
-- not going to sag! The standards allow me to adjust the height of the shelves to fit what is on them.

S.N.: You might want to use the double width brackets and standards as
opposed to the cheaper single ones: I don't know what happened but
maybe 15 years after initial use one of the shelves shifted: bent the
brackets and of course the stuff on the shelf fell off. Good news:
nothing damaged other than the brackets (which I had spares).

KM> The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM
KM> (Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em.
KM> Otherwise... they use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which
KM> are INSULATORS, how exactly is that supposed to work??
Touches heatsink - nice and cool -- must be working!

Just not how you expect!

A little hocus-pocus!

I don't buy that much RAM but when I do if the only option is with (or without) a heatsink the decision is easy. If the manufacturer offers
both I usually look around for user comments to see which is preferred. Either way make sure there is a breeze over the modules to move away
the heat!

Yeah, that's really the key.

And that also means vacuuming the case every so often so the dust
doesn't clog the vent holes.

KM> I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot
KM> overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with
KM> fancy colored LEDs.
I tend to agree: same way they offer RAM in various colours: I don't
care if it's hot pink, just do the job! ...I do have some coloured
modules: were less expensive than the black!

Yeah, so long as it's not flashing lights at me, I don't care.
Tho I have a lighted Cherry keyboard that does
continuously-shifting rainbow backlighting. Not real bright and
makes the keys much easier to see! (You can turn it off, if you
want.)

I'd prefer if the backlighting was able to stay with one colour -- I
think the varying colour would be distracting as my brain would be
thinking "waitaminute: this was green a minute ago, now it's blue...".

LIS in some other messages, the coloured LEDs on components to me is
something useless. If 'green for good' and 'red for hot' that's fine,
but just for being pretty, nah!

KM> The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot.
Warm is fine. When things start getting hot then time to start figuring
out how to cool back down. ..Of course, one had to know it's getting
hot!

By the blister on your finger!

Is that what that meant!!

KM> Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement
KM> was most of why that expensive Dell kept overheating.
IIRC mine also had a chassis fan. The CPU hood seemed to be mostly to direct the hot air out and not mix into the chassis air. ...OTOH, if
the chassis air is being pulled out properly then the relatively small amount of CPU air should not make a significant difference. (IOW
you're probably right -- the hood seemed to be a bill of goods.)

That, exactly. All it really did was prevent air from reaching
the CPU from the sides, so it was mostly just moving around its
own hot air.

"But the request was to move the air around the CPU and keep it from
heating up the rest of the insides!"

> But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because
> back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the
> specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I
> needed to know.
KM> Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs
KM> (Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or
KM> so, and their business laptops have always been pretty durable.
KM> But yeah, in the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary
KM> parts (including the power connector from the PSU) and it was
KM> tough to replace anything but with an expensive Dell-branded
KM> part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen that could use
KM> off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have proprietary PSUs,
KM> and good luck finding which without letting out the magic smoke. Essentially right: I don't have nearly as much experience as you so
don't have a solid opinion. Over the years Dell seems to have a solid business foundation. That could be partially price (business orders 500 computers, save $50 on each, that's $25,000!). Could also be easy

Yeah, business literally buys 'em by the pallet, or the
truckload. Every 3 years if they have liability concerns (didn't
use the latest supported whatever? then the fail is your fault!
My sister's office won't even keep a car that's out of warranty,
millions of dollars of liability if a building falls down...
legal fault lands on 'unsupported' no matter whose fault it
actually was.)

Yes, I remember you making that comment some time back. Read/heard
something similar about the advantage of keeping and repair an old car:
paid off, lower registration costs, etc. But a new car as the latest
safety features, repairs might be covered by warranty, etc. As for the business liability stuff, the cost of the legal (trial costs,
judgement payments, etc.) probably far outweigh the cost of keeping the hardware current.

customination -- we don't need a super-sharp video display but we do
need speed... put in the cheap video card, and fill the RAM slots with
16GB modules. In the mean time I'm trying to buy a single unit.
Probably same base components: motherboard and chassis. What's the CPU? Well, could be .... What's the video? Well... What's the memory?

Why has no one heard of using one of the hardware spec
utilities?? Speccy for one.

Because takes time to boot the computer, run Speccy, inxi, whatever, link
that data to the selling site, then when someone buys that set of specs someone has to get the specific machine rather than one from the general
group. Lots of manual labour which is deemed too costly!

..My guess is I was sort of getting the leftover from that day's
business production.

Like most of mine now. :)

Nothing wrong with that! You probably have a ton of spare parts handy,
ready to swap out, I have a few pounds, including that AGP video card!

> birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly
> with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about
> 50øF!
KM> Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD
KM> gives you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was
KM> more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no
KM> work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it.
In that case I was lucky: the computer would reboot overnight.

Yeah, might be the BIOS was set to heat-trip below a temp that
killed the CPU. Moonbase's old board can do that, set heat trip
temp wherever you want.

Possibly. Nice option as saves the component from killing itself. ...'Annoying' part was it didn't tell me there was a problem, I had to
guess. ...Eventually figured out temperature (sort of guessed might be
as the Computer Room was getting warmer because seasonal changes); wrote
a script to capture various readings: holy poopy the CPU is getting hot!

KM> Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will
KM> be at least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for
KM> ordinary consumer use.
It still seems odd to me to be provided a junk heatsink/fan. I'd rather
not get it, not be charged, and so pay a little less for the CPU and
apply that money to the cooler of my choice.

That, exactly. Intel give you the choice -- buy the kit or the
naked CPU. But at the time AMD didn't. I don't know what they do
now, ain't buying AMD anyway.

I tend not to support AMD because of various 'bad things' in the past.
If a computer here has AMD I'll "deal with it" but as for buying a new computer/motherboard it's probably not going to have AMD.

> KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug
> KM> type.
> More cooling area I'd guess.
KM> Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big
KM> fin array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat
KM> really efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge
KM> condensers (there's usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer
KM> CPUs, that's the only sort I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy
KM> -- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver and Fireball do a stellar job,
KM> both idle just above ambient and about 45C if busy. Paid about
KM> the same for the one in Zombie, a little fancier, and that
KM> slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C.
That makes sense. Know the foot is pretty much going to be limited by
the size of the CPU it is sitting on -- any overlap doesn't have much of
a function. Moving the heat throughout the cooling fins can allow for
more cooling with less surface.

Well, any overlap can still serve as thermal mass. But you're
usually limited by the boundaries of the CPU socket that stick
up, adjacent capacitors, etc.

Right: sort of realized that once said, just not enough experience to
have it come to mind without seeing.

And oddly enough I'm semi-working on updating an older computer: yup
AMD, yup, there's a note on it about overheating problems. At this
point not sure if an upright heatsink/fan will fit the case so might
have to go with a horizontal option. Or maybe there are smaller
upright options: right now only familiar with the ones with a 120 mm
fan.

KM> Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient)
KM> started falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out
KM> that's how long one of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and
KM> heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not
KM> that it matters when its sole job is to play DOOM. But the
KM> overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan and now it turns
KM> much better; will have to check if it plans to stay working or if
KM> I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan.
I've resurrected quite a few fans of various types (including household) with a good air dusting and sewing machine oil. Sometimes with computer fans the problem is simply a build-up of dust: clogging cooling fins or
a build up on the edges and eventually stopping the spinning.

More often it's wear in fans with sleeve bearings. The bearing
gets sticky and dries out, and oiling will help make it slick
again but can't fix the wear. So they never resurrect for long.
Ball bearings type will resurrect more reliably, but can become
very noisy.

I'd swear I've heard the clicking of the ball bearings moving around!

I have some Muffin (brand) fans removed from mainframes which I got
before moving out here in 1975. They have not been running since then
but some had some pretty decent runtime! Right now using one in the
bedroom to provide white (probably more accurately pink) noise while
sleeping. I think the last time I resurrected it I used Lithium Grease
and that seems to be lasting several years.

KM> Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to
KM> replace the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered
KM> the $170 "used" board with some trepidation about the possibility
KM> of bad capacitors on a 20 year old board. I received the exact
KM> same board but brand new (current manufacture) that presently
KM> retails for $460 direct from the mfgr, and has solid capacitors,
KM> and came with a core2duo instead of a plain P4. Same model
KM> number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D
It's sometimes nice when they hire cheap labour that doesn't know what they're doing other than hand over the requested part!

Was twice in a row I didn't get what I ordered, but got what I
wanted instead. <g>

Lucky!!

¯ ®
¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ®
¯ ®


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